Purgatory

[Cesyxn]

where did our church get the concept of purgatory, is it explained in the scriptures?

 

[Cristiano]

Now your human nature is affected by the consequences of sin. Once you are in heaven you will have a glorified body and a clean soul. That implies that sometime between earthly life (after death) and heaven you must be purified of the consequences of sin. If you accept that then you are accepting purgatory. The word purgatory is not in the Bible.

 

[Genesis315]

It’s alluded to with exhortations to pray for the dead, being “baptized” for the dead (here, “baptism” means a kind of suffering, as Jesus used the term before His Passion), and also mention of a purifying fire. Plus, it has been handed down from the Apostles and confirmed by ecumenical Councils and Roman Pontiffs.

 

[otjm]

The seeds for the concept of Purgatory go back about 200 years before Christ, to the Book of Macabees. In there (sorry, I do not have the exact citation) there is reference to the worthiness of praying for the dead.

 

[Pax]

The following is based on the work of Catholic apologist John Martignoni:

Purgatory and scripture

2 Sam 12:13-18
David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died.
There is punishment for Sin even after the sin has been forgiven

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it,
–Nothing unclean will enter heaven

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
–Because nothing unclean will enter heaven

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
–There is a way that the souls of just men are made perfect

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
–After death every man’s work will be tested by fire and he will suffer loss even though he has been saved.

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
–This implies forgiveness of sin or its punishment after death in the age to come.

Matthew 18:23-35
“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? 'And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
–Where can you go after death that is like jail until you have paid all your debt? In heaven there is no need forgiveness. In hell there is no forgiveness.

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
–There is judgment after death for what we have done.

Some verses in scripture simply make no sense in a heaven and hell only theology.
James 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
–If Jesus did everything that needed to be done for the forgiveness of sins then what can this verse mean? Unless there is punishment for sin even after sin is forgiven as in the case of David and Nathan.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.
–Here it is again…something we do that covers a multitude of sins.
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
–Once again, something we do that in someway completes the work of Christ. Even though Christ’s redemptive work is sufficient for forgiveness, there is still punishment for a multitude of sins. Love and suffering cover a multitude of sins.

 

[twf]

This passage from Luke 12 (NAB), I believe, also alludes to purgatory. Notice that the second sinful servant is only given “light blows” and not cast out like the first wicked servant.

35
8 “Gird your loins and light your lamps
36
and be like servants who await their master’s return from a wedding, ready to open immediately when he comes and knocks.
37
Blessed are those servants whom the master finds vigilant on his arrival. Amen, I say to you, he will gird himself, have them recline at table, and proceed to wait on them.
38
And should he come in the second or third watch and find them prepared in this way, blessed are those servants.
39
Be sure of this: if the master of the house had known the hour when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
40
You also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the Son of Man will come.”
41
Then Peter said, “Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone?”
42
And the Lord replied, "Who, then, is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servants to distribute (the) food allowance at the proper time?
43
Blessed is that servant whom his master on arrival finds doing so.
44
Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.
45
But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ 9 and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, to eat and drink and get drunk,
46
then that servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful.
47
That servant who knew his master’s will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;
48
and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

See also scripturecatholic.com/purgatory_qa.html

 

[marietta]

If we must roast in Purgatory before being “cleansed” enough to enter the gates of Heaven, then what is confession for? And who cooked up the idea of indulgences - so many days lopped off our sentences in Purgatory with this prayer and that prayer . . . ?

Nothing wrong with praying for the peaceful repose of the souls of the departed. But how can we gauge the worth of those prayers, aside from the fact that they may be comforting to us?

Check out Pope Gregory the Great - he’s behind the current image of Purgatory. Another example of leading the vulnerable with the installation and maintenance of fear.

marietta

 

[Pax]

Is this a refutation of the scriptures that were presented?

 

[Pax]

marietta,

I would also ask you to explain the meaning and purpose behind early Christians doing penance and wearing sack cloth and ashes for long periods of time after repenting from sin. The practice of indulgences goes back to early Christian times and even goes back into the OT with the “jubilee.”[See Lev. 25:10 etal]

 

[Scottgun]

Lots of third-hand errors here, so please by patient with my brief sketches.

If we must roast in Purgatory before being “cleansed” enough to enter the gates of Heaven

Whether we “roast” in Purgatory is not a decided question. We know there is a purgation from the temporal effects of our sin, but we don’t really know what form it takes.

, then what is confession for?

Confession is for the forgiveness of sins. But sin also has temporal effects. My friend may forgive me for smashing his window, but basic justice says I need to replace the window.

And who cooked up the idea of indulgences - so many days lopped off our sentences in Purgatory with this prayer and that prayer . . . ?

There are no “days in purgatory” to speak of. In the very early days when a Christian sinned and received forgiveness, he did a period of pennance. Some pennances were very lengthy and pretty hard. The Church through indulgences can remit this.

Nothing wrong with praying for the peaceful repose of the souls of the departed. But how can we gauge the worth of those prayers, aside from the fact that they may be comforting to us?

We don’t have to.

Check out Pope Gregory the Great - he’s behind the current image of Purgatory

.

Since the image of purgatory is not very clear, I’m not sure if this helps.

Another example of leading the vulnerable with the installation and maintenance of fear.

Actually purgatory and indulgences are good news and in my experience help to eliminate fear. Like I said, basic justice says I make restitution for the damage that my forgiven sins have caused. I want to do this beacuse I love God and His justice and God in His mercy gives us a means.