Purgatory.

[MariaG]

We stride for perfection,we are all sinners saved by Grace. Nancy

Yes we are saved by Grace. We strive for perfection, but when we get to heaven we are perfectly holy, no longer striving for perfection but truly perfect. What changes?

People contradict.

But the Holy spirit does not. One of us has to have an incorrect or possibly just incomplete understanding of scripture.

Respectfully, yours contradicts what Christians, Jews for that matter, understood about the afterlife.

Not another person that is talking about something differnt read the whole 3 verses before it.

Respectfully, I had, did and continue to do so. You have an incomplete understanding of the scripture if you think that only applies to this side of the grave.

What happens if you do not reconcile with your brother or accusser before you die? Do you think that person will go to hell?

I did not blaspheme!

I did not say you did.

But what scripture does say is that “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

What do you think "forgiven in the age to come means?

that goes for you too!

1Cor3:10-15 shows that especially in verse 15. You will be saved but as through fire. That means there are those who will be saved yet they have some dross to burn away. Where/when will this happen?

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am using scripture to somehow personally accuse you of things.

This is not the case. I am giving you scripture that shows an understanding of purgatory.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Yes we are saved by Grace. We strive for perfection, but when we get to heaven we are perfectly holy, no longer striving for perfection but truly perfect. What changes?

But the Holy spirit does not. One of us has to have an incorrect or possibly just incomplete understanding of scripture.maybe incomplete?

Respectfully, yours contradicts what Christians, Jews for that matter, understood about the afterlife.I don’t care what they beleive for they don’t beleive in Jesus.

Respectfully, I had, did and continue to do so. You have an incomplete understanding of the scripture if you think that only applies to this side of the grave. I’m sorry I dont understand that scripture as you do.Where is purgotory in there? arn’t they in jail?

What happens if you do not reconcile with your brother or accusser before you die? Do you think that person will go to hell?
No! Unless they kill God takes care of those kind of people.(send them to me) i don’t think God would send anyone to hell for little things,and hell is empty right now for the judgement has not happened yet.I ask God to forgive me every day and to forgive the sins I do not see.I know he hears,he’s answered me alot,almost all the time. I want nothing more then to be with him forever,I’d take the lowest position there as long as I can be with him. love of Christ Nancy

I did not say you did.

But what scripture does say is that "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."To blaspheme is to deny the Holy Spirit to speak through you.And not beleive in his power.How do you beleive?

What do you think "forgiven in the age to come means?
The new world that’s coming,after Christ rules for one thousand years?

1Cor3:10-15 shows that especially in verse 15. You will be saved but as through fire. That means there are those who will be saved yet they have some dross to burn away. Where/when will this happen? I know your going to say Purgotory?I think we get drossed here.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I am using scripture to somehow personally accuse you of things. No I think we come from two differnt worlds,we speak differntly,that’s all

This is not the case. I am giving you scripture that shows an understanding of purgatory.Did you read the post at the begining,it was said Purgatory started in the 1600’s?Write back Nancy

God Bless,
Maria

 

[guanophore]

Purgatory exists. It is dogma. De fide. As called ‘Purgatory’, for East and West.

The Councils and Fathers testify to purifying punishment.

Trent for example says ‘let him be anathema’ to those who deny the existence of temporal punishment. .

Yes, but this statement applies as much to the present life as the next. The Reformers were falling into the error that no reparation is needed for sins, in this life, or the next.

I cannot remember the name of the magazine I read it in but the Pope is going to drop the American church and go back to the old way of teaching ect. He was quoted just before he came to America on his last visit.

nancy, your predilection of making these wild erronous statements is part of what has ruined your reputation around here. In addition to not making any sense, and not bearing any semblence to the reality that the rest of us inhabit, it does not appear to be at all related to the topic of the thread!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

quote

 

[malphono]

It seems to me that in the past 25 hours, this thread has changed dramatically and no longer belongs in this forum. Perhaps I’m dense, but I no longer see anything particularly “Eastern” about it.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Yes, but this statement applies as much to the present life as the next. The Reformers were falling into the error that no reparation is needed for sins, in this life, or the next.

nancy, your predilection of making these wild erronous statements is part of what has ruined your reputation around here. In addition to not making any sense, and not bearing any semblence to the reality that the rest of us inhabit, it does not appear to be at all related to the topic of the thread!

Those are your thought’s not anyone elses.You resent the truth and try to put me black,if I have a bad reputation(which I dont) it’s because of your petty accusations,and bad thinking.

 

[guanophore]

I hope not. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Look up Ecc:12:6,7, Nancy

It would be an error to think that those being purified for heaven were absent from the Lord. He is the one who purifies!

Where does that beleif come from and how long ago? Ive never herd of that before. Nancy

Perhaps you will be willing to learn something? Instead of making baseless assertions? Perhaps you will retract your previous assertion that “purgatory was invented in 1600”?

Who made up the word purgatory?When?Thank You Nancy

“Purgatory” is a Latin term that emerged post Nicea to describe the purification with fire that souls undergo so that they can be fit for heaven. It is pecular to the Wester (Latin Rite) of the Catholic Church. The concept, however, has been traceable since the intertestamental period (cf with the book of Maccabees).

But how can that be? Jesus cleansed and purged me from my sins on the cross.Heb:1:3, 9:22, 10:2, 2Peter:1:9. Why then would I go to a place of pain after I die?

It is more properly thought of as a “state” since it is outside the space/time continuum. If you read Rom. 7 you can clearly see that, though we are forgiven by God’s grace, we still struggle with the sin nature (what the Latin Rite calls concupiscence). This is the tendency to sin, part of the effects of original sin. We struggle with this throughout life. There are some that are purified prior to death. Most of us do not overcome our sin nature in this life, but it cannot go to heaven, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Your like all the rest,that think you cant go to heaven unless your Catholic How narrow minded

He never said that, nancy, and the Catholic Church does not teach that. You are imagining this, and blaming it on Catholics.

I do beleive in the 10 commandments and how can you judge the whole world by what your man made rules say?

We could not, but since the rules are God’s and not “man’s” and His judgement has already been made, we can proclaim His will.

I go by the Bible and what it say’s.

Actually, I think you go by what you think it says. There is also a very good chance that you don’t even have a whole bible.

And I am going to heaven,because I’m not a hippocrite,and I pray for people I dont know.

Gosh! I didn’t know that was how you got to heaven!

You dont even know me to judge me or anyone else for that matter.As you beleive. If you want to go to purgatory,go.I’m going to paradise until the Lord comes to get me.

Then we will see one another, since what Jesus refers to as paradise is the same place. It is where the dead await the glorification. It is where the thief went after his crucifixion.

He already went to the grave for me,he took my place and no I do not take advantage of that fact.I appreciate it. God knows my heart,and he hears my prayers,and has answered every one. Because I beleive and he loves me and I love him. Nancy

One has to wonder, nancy. Why are you here on CAF?

 

[guanophore]

Those are your thought’s not anyone elses.

Actually, there are quite a few people here that share this thought.

You resent the truth

Actually, I do not have resentment about all the strange doctines you have posted. I find them quite peculiar. The only think I took y offense about was when you insulted the Catholic faith. If you are going to be on CAF, then you are obligated to follow the rules of the forum, which include refraining from such insults.

and try to put me black,

Actually, there has been no need for me to do anything of the sort. Your posts have done an excellent job!

if I have a bad reputation(which I dont) it’s because of your petty accusations,and bad thinking.

What does any of this have to do with the topic, nancy?

Also, you did not answer my question. You seem to have your mind made up about there being “no purgatory” so why are you on this thread?

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

It would be an error to think that those being purified for heaven were absent from the Lord. He is the one who purifies!

Perhaps you will be willing to learn something? Instead of making baseless assertions? Perhaps you will retract your previous assertion that “purgatory was invented in 1600”?

“Purgatory” is a Latin term that emerged post Nicea to describe the purification with fire that souls undergo so that they can be fit for heaven. It is pecular to the Wester (Latin Rite) of the Catholic Church. The concept, however, has been traceable since the intertestamental period (cf with the book of Maccabees).

It is more properly thought of as a “state” since it is outside the space/time continuum. If you read Rom. 7 you can clearly see that, though we are forgiven by God’s grace, we still struggle with the sin nature (what the Latin Rite calls concupiscence). This is the tendency to sin, part of the effects of original sin. We struggle with this throughout life. There are some that are purified prior to death. Most of us do not overcome our sin nature in this life, but it cannot go to heaven, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

He never said that, nancy, and the Catholic Church does not teach that. You are imagining this, and blaming it on Catholics.

We could not, but since the rules are God’s and not “man’s” and His judgement has already been made, we can proclaim His will.

Actually, I think you go by what you think it says. There is also a very good chance that you don’t even have a whole bible.

Gosh! I didn’t know that was how you got to heaven!

Then we will see one another, since what Jesus refers to as paradise is the same place. It is where the dead await the glorification. It is where the thief went after his crucifixion.

I can"t say anymore except I hope your happy,you sure know how to hurt and make fun of people,If I say or ask anything your all over me I was here to learn but you have changed my mind,you sure know how to quench the Spirit and offend Thank You

One has to wonder, nancy. Why are you here on CAF?

 

[chrisb]

Because I beleive and he loves me and I love him. Nancy

You love him? The Lord said quite clearly, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. Are you?

If it was the most important thing for you to do, my guess is you would find away to do it. But do we? If we don’t I see not reason to pretend that we really love Him as much as we might like to say we do.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

You love him? The Lord said quite clearly, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. Are you?

If it was the most important thing for you to do, my guess is you would find away to do it. But do we? If we don’t I see not reason to pretend that we really love Him as much as we might like to say we do.

You can doubt my love all you want it’s God who will judge me not you.And I guess you have never broken a commandment? I thought I;d ask you since you have the nerve to ask me,and doubt me. If we say we have not sinned then the love of God is not in us and we call Christ a lier,and his death would be in vain.
So are you a sinner saved by grace? or are you pretending?

 

[chrisb]

You can doubt my love all you want it’s God who will judge me not you.And I guess you have never broken a commandment? I thought I;d ask you since you have the nerve to ask me,and doubt me. If we say we have not sinned then the love of God is not in us and we call Christ a lier,and his death would be in vain.

So you think this verse means that grace is to no effect? That just because we are born sinners, we are left in this ruin of life without any aid from God to transcend it? That our loving Father in heaven would leave us in this dreadful state without relief? Cheap grace has always left me cold, I can’t lie to you. If Christianity can’t heal us, if God has truly left us to suffer unaided in sin, then truly we are already in Hell then aren’t we?

So are you a sinner saved by grace? or are you pretending?

If you are asking me if I’m content to live my life in a fallen state of sin. No. And I’m not willing to ignore the disgust that I have for sin either. So not I don’t claim a grace to no effect. If God sends grace upon me, I will be healed. Until then I am a work in progress and will not dare to suggest that He is finished with me.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

So you think this verse means that grace is to no effect? That just because we are born sinners, we are left in this ruin of life without any aid from God to transcend it? That our loving Father in heaven would leave us in this dreadful state without relief? Cheap grace has always left me cold, I can’t lie to you. If Christianity can’t heal us, if God has truly left us to suffer unaided in sin, then truly we are already in Hell then aren’t we?

If you are asking me if I’m content to live my life in a fallen state of sin. No. And I’m not willing to ignore the disgust that I have for sin either. So not I don’t claim a grace to no effect. If God sends grace upon me, I will be healed. Until then I am a work in progress and will not dare to suggest that He is finished with me.

No realy I agree with you because we are a work not finished,and Christ’s blood attoned for our sins and cleansed us from all unrightouness,we strive for perfection,to reach the goal we set our eyes as a flint to keep on keeping on,for the prize.But we can stumble and make mistakes. I think sin is a deliberate conscience awareness that we are going to do what we know is not of God and we still do it knowing the conserquences.The spirit is willing but the flesh is week we are not perfect. I dont know where you come from but i know i am not perfect.someday God will mold me and give me a new name,You’ll see I’ll be there Even if i’m a door mat I’ll be there.love of Christ, and I mean it chrisb Nanncy

 

[chrisb]

No realy I agree with you because we are a work not finished,and Christ’s blood attoned for our sins and cleansed us from all unrightouness,we strive for perfection,to reach the goal we set our eyes as a flint to keep on keeping on,for the prize.But we can stumble and make mistakes. I think sin is a deliberate conscience awareness that we are going to do what we know is not of God and we still do it knowing the conserquences.The spirit is willing but the flesh is week we are not perfect. I dont know where you come from but i know i am not perfect.someday God will mold me and give me a new name,You’ll see I’ll be there Even if i’m a door mat I’ll be there.love of Christ, and I mean it chrisb Nanncy

You seem to only be concerned about sin because of external consequences… what of the internal?

What about the depression and the self loathing, the disgust and the hatred of our fallen nature?

You see I believe that sanctification starts ‘now’ the moment grace regenerates our nature. Honestly, I’ve seen improvement but I’m far from prefect or even sinless but I see improvement. Grace is to an effect, today in our lives now.

What is left to be done I believe will be done in the moments of our death. A purging of our imperfections because no sin can stand in the presence of God. For me this process is purgatory.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

You seem to only be concerned about sin because of external consequences… what of the internal?

What about the depression and the self loathing, the disgust and the hatred of our fallen nature?

You see I believe that sanctification starts ‘now’ the moment grace regenerates our nature. Honestly, I’ve seen improvement but I’m far from prefect or even sinless but I see improvement. Grace is to an effect, today in our lives now.

What is left to be done I believe will be done in the moments of our death. A purging of our imperfections because no sin can stand in the presence of God. For me this process is purgatory.

When I do something wrong,I ask God to for give me and I have that blessed assurance he has,after I pray I walk away feeling clean,free.It 's a real good feeling.Prayer brings me real closer to christ the only mediator between god and man.Praise God for he loving kindness.Amen Nancy

 

[chrisb]

When I do something wrong,I ask God to for give me and I have that blessed assurance he has,after I pray I walk away feeling clean,free.It 's a real good feeling.Prayer brings me real closer to christ the only mediator between god and man.Praise God for he loving kindness.Amen Nancy

That would be fine if you aren’t raping or killing people but what do you do when you are doing something that actually harms others? And in fact aren’t most of our sins harmful to others also? Are you telling me that it’s fine with God that we harm others with our actions?

 

[guanophore]

No realy I agree with you because we are a work not finished,and Christ’s blood attoned for our sins and cleansed us from all unrightouness,we strive for perfection,to reach the goal we set our eyes as a flint to keep on keeping on,for the prize.But we can stumble and make mistakes. I think sin is a deliberate conscience awareness that we are going to do what we know is not of God and we still do it knowing the conserquences.The spirit is willing but the flesh is week we are not perfect. I dont know where you come from but i know i am not perfect.someday God will mold me and give me a new name,You’ll see I’ll be there Even if i’m a door mat I’ll be there.love of Christ, and I mean it chrisb Nanncy

You are definitely on the road there, nancy. Purgatory is the doormat to heaven, and all that you have described here is what happens in that blessed vestibule.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

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Eastern Catholicism Moderator

Dear forum,
I was told by a Byzantine Catholic cleric that Purgatory is only a Roman concept and does not exist. I am also told that the Western and Eastern Catholic church are bound by the same doctrine, dogma and the same majesterium. How can all this possible?
Regards,
Medi