Purgatory.

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Dear forum,
I was told by a Byzantine Catholic cleric that Purgatory is only a Roman concept and does not exist. I am also told that the Western and Eastern Catholic church are bound by the same doctrine, dogma and the same majesterium. How can all this possible?
Regards,
Medi
 
Purgatory, as a place of fire, where the stains of sins are burned away, it a Roman Theologumenon… (Theological Construct.)

The Dogmatic purgatory is not defined nearly that tightly, merely a place or state of continuing refinement and struggle to attain heaven, for those not condemned to eternal hell, nor yet admitted to heaven.

The posthumous theosis of the byzantines in general, the stations of the Russo-Byzantines, the Roman Purgatory… all can fall within that construction
 
It seems that in the Bible, Mcabees (sp) comes to mind, that it is said that t is good to pray for the dead. With that being said prayers will not do any good for those souls in heven or in hell. So why pray for the dead (if there is no purgarory or similar place)?
 
The first thing to understand is what is meant by “temporal punishment”. The most succinct explanation I’ve seen is from the USCCB Catechism:

Every sin has consequences. It disrupts our communion with God and the Church, weakens our ability to resist temptation, and hurts others. The necessity of healing these consequences, once the sin itself has been forgiven, is called temporal punishment.

If you understand this, you can understand why we must “purge” ourselves of these consequences with “purgative” penances. If we die with our soul still bearing these distortions caused by sin, the soul must go through a “purgatorial” process so that it may be purified to stand before God.
 
JMJ_coder said:
The first thing to understand is what is meant by “temporal punishment”. The most succinct explanation I’ve seen is from the USCCB Catechism:

Every sin has consequences. It disrupts our communion with God and the Church, weakens our ability to resist temptation, and hurts others. The necessity of healing these consequences, once the sin itself has been forgiven, is called temporal punishment.

If you understand this, you can understand why we must “purge” ourselves of these consequences with “purgative” penances. If we die with our soul still bearing these distortions caused by sin, the soul must go through a “purgatorial” process so that it may be purified to stand before God.
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Temporal punishment isnot dogmatic.
 
Aramis said:
Temporal punishment isnot dogmatic.
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So your saying in the Eastern Churches that when one sins - everything is just hunky dory? There are no consequences to sin in Eastern thought? Are you really trying to say that?
 
No. But the concept of punishment for a particular sin post-confession is particularly Latin.

The repairing of the damage posthumously is not seen as punishment in the byzantine model. It’s seen as a purification process, and a healing process, but not, inherently, punishment.
 
Keep in mind that Eastern Christians (both Catholic and Orthodox) prefer to leave many mysteries undefined and paradoxes unresolved.

It is the tradtion of the Church that the faithful departed are aided by alms and good works and prayers offered in their names, especially the Eucharist.

For us, that suffices.
 
St. Peter Mohyla put it well in his Orthodox Catechism published in Kyiv:
…nevertheless, many sinners are freed from the prisons of hell, but not though their own penitence or confession, just as Scripture says: “Who shall confess to you in hell?”[156] And elsewhere: “The dead shall not praise you, O Lord, nor any of them that go down to hell.”[157] But they are freed through the good works of the living and the Church’s prayers for them, most of all through the unbloody sacrifice, which is offered on certain days for all the living and the dead, even as Christ the Lord died for the very same."
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[161] It is evident from these words that the soul after death can neither free itself, nor do penance, nor do any good, by means of which it might be delivered from the prisons of hell, but only through the unbloody sacrifice, the prayers of the Church and almsgiving, which the living are accustomed to perform for them. It is by means of these that the souls receive the greatest aid and are freed from the prisons of hell.
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I’m an Eastern Catholic but I believe in Purgatory. To my knowledge, the East just has not defined the concept to the extent that the West but generally have the same concept of a possibility for some transitional period between death and entering Heaven.
 
A process of healing may not always be pleasant. Personally I wouldn`t say punishment but the help that comes from the love of Jesus and divine mercy.But again the difference of how this process is looked at a little differently east or west. The main thing is all Catholics and Orthodox believe this process necessary and that it does exist for souls after this earthly life.
 
Aramis said:
No. But the concept of punishment for a particular sin post-confession is particularly Latin.

The repairing of the damage posthumously is not seen as punishment in the byzantine model. It’s seen as a purification process, and a healing process, but not, inherently, punishment.
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Sin has consequences that extend beyond the Sacrament of Confession. Sin distorts and perverts the will and has other effects. For example, an alcoholic walking out of the Sacrament is not free from the need to attend AA meetings to stay ‘on the wagon’. As Father Corapi once put it: “Sin is like driving a nail into a piece of wood. Go to Confession and it’s like removing the nail. But, what’s left? A big hole!”.

Call it or view it as punishment, purification, healing, whatever – the underlying reality is the same. The soul must be restored to the unblemished image of God, an image that we tarnish and distort by sin.
 
JMJ_coder said:
The soul must be restored to the unblemished image of God, an image that we tarnish and distort by sin.
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And that is pretty much the Eastern concept of purgatory. It is the purgation of that which separates us from God, the continuation of theosis after death.

Deacon Ed
 
The difference lies in the theological conception. The practice(alms, prayers etc.) is virtually the same.

The Eastern Churches, as far as I know, don’t accept that there ramains a sin or a burden of sin that would still need to be extinguished by own means of rendering justice and could not be abolished right away by Christ’s death on the cross - that is, they reject the concept of temporal punishment.
 
In my understanding, Western Catholics do see Purgatory as both a punishment and a healing/sanctifying process. It’s not just a punishment. It’s supposed to be painful, but the purpose is to get us “finished” “purified” for Heaven, not to punish us… the sins are already forgiven. In Purgatory, the effects of sin on our souls are cleansed away.

It sounds like the West just defines the whole concept more?
 
Monica4316 said:
In my understanding, Western Catholics do see Purgatory as both a punishment and a healing/sanctifying process. It’s not just a punishment. It’s supposed to be painful, but the purpose is to get us “finished” “purified” for Heaven, not to punish us… the sins are already forgiven. In Purgatory, the effects of sin on our souls are cleansed away.

It sounds like the West just defines the whole concept more?
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Not just more… Too much.

But the unacceptability of the latin traditional view to the eastern theologians (both catholic and orthodox) is part of the reason why the dogmatic definition makes no mention of punishment.

It’s vague specifically to prevent hangups over details and to prevent declaring chunks of the Catholic Church heterodox.
 
wjp984 said:
I’m an Eastern Catholic but I believe in Purgatory. To my knowledge, the East just has not defined the concept to the extent that the West but generally have the same concept of a possibility for some transitional period between death and entering Heaven.
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same here,

like what you said Eastern tradition just never went as in depth as the Western Church.
 
You could be told that by a Western cleric and he’d be wrong too. 🙂

Purgatory exists. It is dogma. De fide. As called ‘Purgatory’, for East and West.

The Councils and Fathers testify to purifying punishment.

Trent for example says ‘let him be anathema’ to those who deny the existence of temporal punishment.

Therefor these matters are to be held both in the East and the West, though one half may prefer to /emphasize/ one aspect more than the other it must be noted that some of what is different between East and West is a bad perspective due to cultural separation and the problems resulting in the East due to unorthodox ‘Orthodoxy’.
 
I have been taught and teach that, “Absent from the body, present with the Lord.” means all of us. From there, the Soul will see the lack of Absolute Purity compared to Christ Jesus, and that we/I will gladly go anywhere for final Purification.
In addition most will enter Purgatory at the gate marked Pride, because that is the chief sin many share in common. This gate will open for many whether Roman/ Orthodox, Eastern/Western, Protestants…
My Baptist Grandma put it this way, "Just because I don’t believe running a red light is against the law, I still have to pay the ticket whether I believe it or not. Shalom!
Randy
 
Medi said:
Dear forum,
I was told by a Byzantine Catholic cleric that Purgatory is only a Roman concept and does not exist. I am also told that the Western and Eastern Catholic church are bound by the same doctrine, dogma and the same majesterium. How can all this possible?
Regards,
Medi
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I cannot remember the name of the magazine I read it in but the Pope is going to drop the American church and go back to the old way of teaching ect. He was quoted just before he came to America on his last visit.
 
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