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eucharist04
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I hear from anti-catholics say that our belief in purgatory says we do not believe that the blood of Jesus does not cleanse us from all sin , so we need purgatory.
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
What is purgatory but the Blood of Christ being made fully effective? Obviously, if we were made perfect at any point in our earthly lives, we would show it. All Christians would be absolutely perfcet- incapable of sin. But obviously, we are not. So either the Blood of Christ is not sufficient to make us perfectly holy, or we become holy over the course of time. Yet, to make it into Heaven, we must be perfect, because nothing impure can enter God’s presence (some psalm or other says this). So, since we are imperfect on Earth, and we must be perfect in Heaven, either no one makes it to Heaven, or something happens to help make us ready.
Tim,
I get all this, and if this is all there is to it, I can accept the idea.
Tell me how pennance and indulgences fit in?
Jon
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Tim_Kirchoff
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Our remaining imperfections are made evident through our sins. As part of our sanctification (becoming holy), we must over time learn ot recognize and repent of our remaining sins.
Now, every single sin negatively affects the entire Body of Christ in some way or other. In our sins, we either fail to live up to our obligations to others, or violate in some way the dignity of others. Penance is our way of recognizing our failings and doing what little we can to make it right- both to our neighbors, and to God.
Penance and indulgences are public admissions of our own sinfulness, and ways of helping to make up for the harm we casued to the Universal Body of Christ.
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SyCarl
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I have little problem that we must be cleansed from all sin before entering Heaven. However my understanding is that Purgatory is more than this. It involves the temporal punishment of sin. This causes me a problem.
I can understand discipline in this life to correct our behavior but punishment after death would not be for this purpose.
When we are born again, through baptism or whatever means, all our sin is forgiven including what the Catholic Church calls the temporal and eternal punishment for that sin. That does not involve any suffering. I believe that we will be cleansed in the same way after death.
We are told that God does not remember our sin. That would not be true if we are to be punished after death although it has been forgiven during our life.
I can understand discipline in this life to correct our behavior but punishment after death would not be for this purpose.
When we are born again, through baptism or whatever means, all our sin is forgiven including what the Catholic Church calls the temporal and eternal punishment for that sin. That does not involve any suffering. I believe that we will be cleansed in the same way after death.
We are told that God does not remember our sin. That would not be true if we are to be punished after death although it has been forgiven during our life.
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Nita
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We don’t know just exactly what the “punishment” in Purgatory consists of - what we will experience. It is our souls, and not our bodies that will be in Purgatory (since Purgatory ceases after the resurrection of our bodies and final judgement).
You mention that God does not remember our sins (if we repent) - but perhaps we do. It may well be that in our immediate judgement after death, we will be shown all the repercussions our sins have had on others. The agony this may cause us could well be part of the punishment we will undergo after death.
Nita
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SteveGC
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SyCarl, perhaps this explanation, taken directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, will help you.
**The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”**
You seem to acknowlege that discipline in this life is required, but do you think that this discipline is devoid of suffering? If so, what is this discipline you refer to? One fundamental difference I notice between Catholics and non-Catholics is the concept of suffering. Catholic teaching embraces suffering, acknowledges it as divinely purposeful in our lives. In contrast, non-Catholic teaching seems to stiff-arm suffering, stressing how fervently we should pray to God to relieve us of all our sufferings. To a great extent, a Christian life is a life of suffering. This must be embraced. Doing so also helps one come to terms with purgatory.
Also realize that discipline is not the purpose of purgatory, cleansing is. Both are forms of punishment, in a sense…and therefore, both involve some form of suffering.
God Bless
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Church_Militant
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VociMike
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They’re simply confusing the “what” with the “how”. It’s like saying that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ doesn’t cleanse us from all sins because we are required to have faith.
I’d call it a theological first-grade mistake.
I’d call it a theological first-grade mistake.
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VociMike
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Well, what is the purpose of God’s punishment for those who are saved?
I think you’re assuming that punishment means inflicting pain out of some sort of vengeance, but God never punishes that way. Humans may, but God doesn’t.
Are you saying that there is no suffering involved in giving up sin? All of human history argues against you.
Again, you are not correctly understanding what God’s punishment is.
Now I’ll say that, due to the strong connotations of the word, I don’t like the use of the term “punishment” in this case either. What God is doing is perfecting us, sanctifying us, purifying us. And it hurts because we are attached to sin in life, and most of us are still attached to sin upon death. So there is suffering involved in separating us from our sin, and it can properly be called punishment, but it must be understood as God’s punishment of those who he is saving, not any imperfect form of human punishment. It is punishment always and only aimed at achieving what is best for the person.
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SyCarl
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Discipline is not pleasant but it is meant to correct our future actions. However once we are dead this purpose would no longer seem to exist.
I am not saying that giving up sin is easy, but we are the ones who make it hard, not God. My point is that God has cleansed once when we were reborn. That cleansing did not require punishment and there is no reason that the cleansing at death should either.
There seems to be an attempt by many Catholics to mitigate the punishment aspect of Purgatory. However, the Council of Trent is quite clear on this.
Again purifying does not necessitate punishment. The Catholic Church teaches baptismal regeneration. Does that regeneration involve punishment? No, both the temporal and eternal punishments are forgiven. What Purgatory encourages are those who feel baptism should be put off as long as possible. Consider if two people have lead exactly the same life except one was baptized as an infant and the other wasn’t. Each is on their deathbed. At that point the one is baptized and receives full forgiveness. The other gives a confession but still faces Purgatory.
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VociMike
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You keep saying things about punishment without defining it. Define what it means for God to punish one who is saved, but still has an attachment to sin.
Until you say what you mean by the word, it is useless to have this discussion.
BTW, there is no Church teaching I am aware of that says that a terrible sinner, baptized just before death, will not need to undergo purgatory.
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Mickey
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Better yet, how does Rome define it?
I just heard Fr Corapi the other day say that baptism washes away all sin–including temporal. He said that if we were to die, we would go straight to heaven and bypass purgatory. So either Fr Corapi is mistaken, or SylCarl has a really good point.
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MarcoPolo
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Father Corapi is correct. Someone immediately after baptism would go straight to heaven, no purgatory. As well, someone who just completed a plenary indulgence. And as well, the greatest of saints who have achieved utter focus on God.I just heard Fr Corapi the other day say that baptism washes away all sin–including temporal. He said that if we were to die, we would go straight to heaven and bypass purgatory. So either Fr Corapi is mistaken, or SylCarl has a really good point.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Even a forgiven sin has residual effects that must be purged, or if you will, the temporal punishment of the sin must be cleansed. For example, Jesus said everyone who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). So while a penitent might repent of the sin and be forgiven, his slavery to that sin remains as a stain, an injury if you will, that must be healed, purged from his soul. More on temporal punishment from Jimmy Akin archived at EWTN here.
And I know you (SyCarl) said you have a problem with the idea that we must be cleansed from all sin prior to entering heaven, but Scripture is pretty clear that nothing unclean enters heaven, and we must attain to be perfect as our Father is holy, a holiness without which no one will see God. (Rev 21:27, Matt 5:48, Heb 12:14)
And I know you (SyCarl) said you have a problem with the idea that we must be cleansed from all sin prior to entering heaven, but Scripture is pretty clear that nothing unclean enters heaven, and we must attain to be perfect as our Father is holy, a holiness without which no one will see God. (Rev 21:27, Matt 5:48, Heb 12:14)
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06convert
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There are some strange responses above.
- Purgatory is a state of being, not a place. It’s not like heaven or hell, it’s transition period on your way to heaven.
- Sin is like a wound on our soul. Even though it has been healed, a scar remains. This remnant of sin must be gone before someone can enter into heaven.
- The only way to get rid of the effects of sin and thus make it to heaven is through penance and/or suffering. This can be done in this life or the next. If we endure enough while on earth we can get right to heaven, but likely you will have to suffer for a bit after you die before you can get to heaven.
- Baptism is a fresh start, any sin or effects from sin starts over from the moment of baptism. If you were to instantly die before you could sin, you would go straight to heaven.
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Mickey
Guest
So then do Roman Catholics believe it is better to wait for very late in life to be baptized?
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mark_a
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Sat what?
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Godfollower
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It would help to remember that the purpose of purgatory is not to punish; it is to cleanse (the very word “purgatory” comes from the Latin purgare, “clean, cleanse, make clean, purge” – not “punish.”
We know from Scripture that nothing unclean can enter Heaven:
So, if you’re destined for Heaven (a/k/a “if you’ve been saved”) but are still unclean at your death, what will happen? Obviously: you’ll be made clean. That is, you’ll be purged of your sins and your tendency to sin. What do we call the moment of purging you? Purgatory.
The Church does not teach that you can go to Purgatory instead of Heaven. Purgatory is not a “third” destination in the afterlife. All we know is that (A) some people will go to Hell; (B) some people will go straight to Heaven, having died clean (e.g., by dying immediately after Baptism washed them clean); and (C) some people will go to Heaven but will have to be cleansed first. They will then, having been cleansed, enter Heaven. As Paul said, “the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:15). If the cleansing process is painful (like the removal of an abcessed tooth), so be it; it’ll be good for me in the end.
We know from Scripture that nothing unclean can enter Heaven:
Rev. 21:26-27 (describing “the holy city, a new Jerusalem,coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,” per verses 2-3).
So, if you’re destined for Heaven (a/k/a “if you’ve been saved”) but are still unclean at your death, what will happen? Obviously: you’ll be made clean. That is, you’ll be purged of your sins and your tendency to sin. What do we call the moment of purging you? Purgatory.
The Church does not teach that you can go to Purgatory instead of Heaven. Purgatory is not a “third” destination in the afterlife. All we know is that (A) some people will go to Hell; (B) some people will go straight to Heaven, having died clean (e.g., by dying immediately after Baptism washed them clean); and (C) some people will go to Heaven but will have to be cleansed first. They will then, having been cleansed, enter Heaven. As Paul said, “the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:15). If the cleansing process is painful (like the removal of an abcessed tooth), so be it; it’ll be good for me in the end.
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davidv
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No. Why would you think we believe this?
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