M
Mickey
Guest
No one has responded to SylCarl’s point.
- Status
M
Mickey
Guest
It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments…
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439)
M
mardukm
Guest
It is my understanding that this “non-remembrance” of our sin refers to the FINAL judgment at the Endtimes.
Blessings,
Marduk
D
davidv
Guest
A number of people responded to SylCarl. And, SylCarl never said it was better to wait on baptism, so I’m not sure of your point.
M
Mickey
Guest
VociMike responded but he was apparently mistaken. Can you show me the other responses–I must have missed them. Thank you. This is what SylCarl said:
“The Catholic Church teaches baptismal regeneration. Does that regeneration involve punishment? No, both the temporal and eternal punishments are forgiven. What Purgatory encourages are those who feel baptism should be put off as long as possible. Consider if two people have lead exactly the same life except one was baptized as an infant and the other wasn’t. Each is on their deathbed. At that point the one is baptized and receives full forgiveness. The other gives a confession but still faces Purgatory.”
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Mickey,
“the souls of these are cleansed after death by cleansing pains…”
dailycatholic.org/history/17ecume8.htm
I wonder if anyone has the original Latin and/or Greek of the text?
Blessings,
Marduk
Where did you get this translation? The last line from an online Catholic translation reads:
“the souls of these are cleansed after death by cleansing pains…”
dailycatholic.org/history/17ecume8.htm
I wonder if anyone has the original Latin and/or Greek of the text?
Blessings,
Marduk
G
Godfollower
Guest
There have been people who argued that very point, and I’m sure there have been people who have tried it. That’s not a very good idea, though, and the Church does not teach that you should do so.
First, it might not work: you could sin your entire life, planning to be baptized toward the end of your life, and die on your way to the baptism. Oops!
Second, it’s presumptuous. The sin of presumption, roughly stated, involves the act of sinning in reliance on later forgiveness by God to avoid eternal punishment (the classic “murder someone on Friday, confess it on Saturday, go to church on Sunday” approach). It’s forbidden, because God’s call to be holy doesn’t mean “be holy when it’s convenient for you;” it means “be holy.” By holding off on baptism until you’re near death, you’re basically saying “I’m gonna sin, so I’ll go ahead and sin and just rely on Baptism later so I’ll get my free pass into Heaven.”
Third, it treats God like an accounting computer. “Ha, ha! I got baptised just before I died! So you have to let me in, even though I don’t care how many people I murdered!” That’s an improper relationship with God (you should be not-murdering instead, trying to lead a holy life in accordance with Scripture).
Fourth, it misses the point. We aren’t supposed to be caught in a legalistic mess, where we try to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s before the music stops and we have to grab a chair to win the game; we’re supposed to be doing God’s will. His will is that we should be baptised. So go do it.
M
Mickey
Guest
M
Mickey
Guest
Amen. And to me, purgatory and indulgences have always been a legalistic mess.
M
MarcoPolo
Guest
No, but that was an issue in the very early Church. The reason was because the doctrine of confession had not been fully developed, and there was debate as to whether or not a person could be reconciled with God after committing a mortal sin. Some bishops even argued against the acceptance of heretics or murderers back to the Church. And of course, you couldn’t commit heresy unless you weren’t first a Christian by baptism. Some of these movements were the Donatists and Montanists (I think).
But, the Church has recognized that even horrible mortal sins can be forgiven in the sacrament of penance.
So the reason no one should wait for baptism until their death bed is multi-fold: 1. Because you could die at any moment. 2. Because even if you commit a mortal sin, God welcomes you back. 3. Because refusing baptism is in itself sinful if one knows that the fulness of the faith subsists in the Catholic Church and he is able to accept it.
M
Mickey
Guest
M
mardukm
Guest
My response would be:
Such a scenario is impossible for ANYONE who understands and accepts the Sacramental grandeur of Baptism and the Graces it gives to the Christian. Baptism permits one to partake of the Eucharist which is the food of eternal life and helps us in our daily struggles. Why would ANYONE want to put it off?
The only way I see someone not wanting Baptism until their deathbed is one who wants to live an unChristian life. I cannot imagine such an one accept deathbed Baptism by virtue of perfect contrition, but only attrition. And there’s the rub.
Baptism of adults has an additional element that is not required of baptism of infants - namely, repentance.
An adult who is baptized still needs to reject sin. This must be done with an attitude of contrition. I do not believe one who goes through life sinning and expecting to be saved at death’s bed will, at death’s bed, make a repentance of contrition, but rather merely one of attrition (i.e., out of fear for the consequences, not out pure, genuine and deep love for God ALONE). In such a case, even a deathbed Baptism will not save a sinner from the pains of Purgatory.
Blessings,
Marduk
M
Mickey
Guest
And so are venial sins. Are you not taught that even venial sins of which you have forgotten are absolved, and that Holy Communion is for the remission of sins? So now you have all these wonderful sacraments–baptism, reconciliation, and Holy Communion for the remission of sins that the Lord has given to us out of His great love and mercy for the human race. He is all merciful and forgiving. There is no need for the post schism “doctrine” of purgatory and/or indulgences.
M
mardukm
Guest
I think it’s necessary and important, if only to get the real word translated as “pain” or “punishment.” Those are two distinct words. The word “punishment” has a penal connotation that the word “pain” does not.
Blessings,
Marduk
P
PJM
Guest
FYI…
"Re: Purgatory: Explain Purgatory to an Evangelical
Hello,
I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism, and Purgatory is one of the first doctrines I accepted while still a Protestant. I hope I can be of some help.
C.S. Lewis gives an explanation something like this one:
When we die, we will stand before God and He will say to us, “You are free to enter here; no one will say anything about your condition, but would you like to clean up first?” We will look down and see that we are covered in dirt and scabs, that our clothes are torn and tattered, and (worst of all!) that our hair is an absolute mess. So, we will say, “Clean me, please!” The process of peeling off the dirty clothes, scouring off the grime and dirt, picking the scabs off the healed wounds, having our hair made neat, and being fitted with the finest clothing will be that process of purgatory.
No one is perfect when he dies, even though we all ought to strive for perfection in this life. Inevitably, bad habits formed and vices buried deep will not be gone at the moment of death. However, in Heaven we will all be perfect. Purgatory is the process of working out those imperfections. This is not a punishment any more than the training of a dog is a punishment; it is an education, and we will beg for it so that the lens through which we see God (nothing less than our whole soul) may be perfectly clean and bright in order that we may see Him as He really is.
As a Protestant, this explanation made a lot of sense to me. I hope it helps."
Not my post, but very good explaination
"Re: Purgatory: Explain Purgatory to an Evangelical
Hello,
I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism, and Purgatory is one of the first doctrines I accepted while still a Protestant. I hope I can be of some help.
C.S. Lewis gives an explanation something like this one:
When we die, we will stand before God and He will say to us, “You are free to enter here; no one will say anything about your condition, but would you like to clean up first?” We will look down and see that we are covered in dirt and scabs, that our clothes are torn and tattered, and (worst of all!) that our hair is an absolute mess. So, we will say, “Clean me, please!” The process of peeling off the dirty clothes, scouring off the grime and dirt, picking the scabs off the healed wounds, having our hair made neat, and being fitted with the finest clothing will be that process of purgatory.
No one is perfect when he dies, even though we all ought to strive for perfection in this life. Inevitably, bad habits formed and vices buried deep will not be gone at the moment of death. However, in Heaven we will all be perfect. Purgatory is the process of working out those imperfections. This is not a punishment any more than the training of a dog is a punishment; it is an education, and we will beg for it so that the lens through which we see God (nothing less than our whole soul) may be perfectly clean and bright in order that we may see Him as He really is.
As a Protestant, this explanation made a lot of sense to me. I hope it helps."
Not my post, but very good explaination
M
Mickey
Guest
Bingo! And so the other sacraments of forgiveness when accompanied by contrition and faith by the mercy of God are for our forgiveness. The idea of further punishments or pains in a place or state of pre-heaven does not wash.
M
Mickey
Guest
Oh, okay!
To that point, I offer this quote from:Yeah, the definition seems to continue to change as the centuries go by.
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
So, my question, if it is indeed momentary, how do indulgences or even pennace effect my “stay” in purgatory? I’m not arguing, I really want to understand.
Jon
M
mardukm
Guest
Only if you believe that you are perfect and do not need the Graces of deification.Bingo! And so the other sacraments of forgiveness when accompanied by contrition and faith by the mercy of God are for our forgiveness. The idea of further punishments or pains in a place or state of pre-heaven does not wash.
uch:Blessings,
Marduk
- Status