Purgatory

[mardukm]

Yeah, the definition seems to continue to change as the centuries go by.

So you don’t believe Scripture when it states that God chastises those whom he loves?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[MarcoPolo]

And so are venial sins. Are you not taught that even venial sins of which you have forgotten are absolved, and that Holy Communion is for the remission of sins? So now you have all these wonderful sacraments–baptism, reconciliation, and Holy Communion for the remission of sins that the Lord has given to us out of His great love and mercy for the human race. He is all merciful and forgiving. There is no need for the post schism “doctrine” of purgatory and/or indulgences.

No there is a difference between having a sin forgiven and becoming completely without attachment to sin, or having one’s will perfected away from sin. Only those without any such blemish will enter heaven, as Scripture says.

Here are two premises from Scripture:

1. We are sinful beings on earth.
2. There is perfect purity, no sin in heaven.

Unless you deny one of the two premises, then you understand that at death, our tendency and attachment for sin will be purged from our souls.

 

[SyCarl]

I think it’s necessary and important, if only to get the real word translated as “pain” or “punishment.” Those are two distinct words. The word “punishment” has a penal connotation that the word “pain” does not.

Blessings,
Marduk

The Council of Trent also made a canon on Purgatory.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

 

[mardukm]

The Council of Trent also made a canon on Purgatory.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

Personally, I have no problem with the idea of punishment or pain as a means to holiness. Scripture tells us to expect chastisement, Even more, it tells us that if we are not sons of God, He would not chastise us. That we experience pain and punishment because of our sin for the sake of holiness is EVIDENCE that we are sons of God. Many Protestants and Eastern Orthodox reject this truth to their spiritual detriment.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[SyCarl]

Personally, I have no problem with the idea of punishment or pain as a means to holiness. Scripture tells us to expect chastisement, Even more, it tells us that if we are not sons of God, He would not chastise us. That we experience pain and punishment because of our sin for the sake of holiness is EVIDENCE that we are sons of God. Many Protestants and Eastern Orthodox reject this truth to their spiritual detriment.

Blessings,
Marduk

I have no problem with suffering as part of chastisement or discipline in this life where it serves the purpose of correcting and teaching us to better the rest of our lives. Where I do have a problem is with punishment after death when it does not have that purpose. I know that there must be a final cleansing after death but such does not require punishment.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have no problem with suffering as part of chastisement or discipline in this life where it serves the purpose of correcting and teaching us to better the rest of our lives. Where I do have a problem is with punishment after death when it does not have that purpose. I know that there must be a final cleansing after death but such does not require punishment.

When you read what is described by the term “temporal punishment” whether or not it be from Trent or the Catechism, the same concept is being described–to purify the soul of imperfections. If you read them in context, this is what is being described. So I think you actually agree with Purgatory, but you use your own words, which your final sentence above reflects nicely in the phrase “final cleansing.”

 

[mardukm]

I have no problem with suffering as part of chastisement or discipline in this life where it serves the purpose of correcting and teaching us to better the rest of our lives. Where I do have a problem is with punishment after death when it does not have that purpose. I know that there must be a final cleansing after death but such does not require punishment.

That is a valid concern. As you might know, the Catholic Church is a communion of 23 Churches, each having their unique spirituality and theology, yet all having the same Faith. The idea of punishment after death is a uniquely Western understanding of Purgatory which is not shared by the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. The idea of pain for the sake of holiness is a uniquely Western and Oriental understanding of Purgatory which is not shared by the Eastern Catholic Churches.

So what unites the Western, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic Churches into one Catholic Church despite these differences? It is the basic DOGMA of Purgatory which states: 1) There is a state after death and before final judgment where the soul may experience further cleansing unto holiness and perfection; 2) the prayers, suffrages, and sacrifices of the Faithful, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, redounds to the spiritual benefit of those who are in this state after death.

These two elements of Purgatory are THE ONLY THING REQUIRED TO BE BELIEVED FOR A PERSON TO BE CATHOLIC. All other matters - whether there is pain or not, whether there is fire or not, whether one can measure time in Purgatory or not, whether punishment or not. All these things are secondary and ARE NOT REQUIRED for a person to be Catholic. Judging from what you have written above, you can easily become Catholic while believing what you believe.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Godfollower]

I have no problem with suffering as part of chastisement or discipline in this life where it serves the purpose of correcting and teaching us to better the rest of our lives. Where I do have a problem is with punishment after death when it does not have that purpose. I know that there must be a final cleansing after death but such does not require punishment.

And the Catholic Church does not teach that punishment will happen after death. It only teaches that a cleansing will happen after death. Now, various things hint that the cleansing might be painful (e.g., Paul’s statement that certain people “will be saved, but only as through fire” – which sounds painful), but the Church teaches that any such pain is not inflicted for pain’s sake; it’s just that being cleansed can be painful.

Remember the story of the person standing in a file room who discovers that every file in the room is a separate sin committed by that person during his/her life? And further discovers that Jesus is standing there, signing His own Name in blood over each sin, blotting it out? That would be very painful to watch – but it wouldn’t be pain inflicted for pain’s sake, or punishment as you seem to be using the term.

We’re all broken vessels because of sin. Jesus saves us and restores us to the unbroken condition we were intended to have. But, just as setting a broken leg is painful, the process of perfecting us – though beneficial by any measure – may well be painful.

That doesn’t make God mean. It just means that we brought something on ourselves that He will fix. Any pain involved is merely the natural consequence of our own actions, not of His will.

Or there might not be any pain at all. We don’t know, and neither Scripture nor Tradition tells us. So the Church doesn’t teach either way.

Personally, I have a hunch that just standing in the Almighty’s presence on judgment day will be pain enough. Remember Peter’s instinctive “Leave me Lord, for I am a sinful man” comment (Luke 5:8)? I bet we’ll feel the same way.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I hear from anti-catholics say that our belief in purgatory says we do not believe that the blood of Jesus does not cleanse us from all sin , so we need purgatory.

Jesus died for our sins - yes.
That doesnt mean we should take for granted His Blood and assent to sinning because He died for us.

So as the Just Judge, and the Bible says He will be judge - then He will choose if we are due Mercy [via His Blood] or Justice also via His Blood - so we are not sent to hell due to our sins…but our sins still have residual effects and our apathy might demand justice.

But those who sin and were ‘lukewarm’ were better to have been given the mercy of purgation than sent away completely.

Purgatory is mercy and a promise that those cleaning thru His fire - are going to Heaven.

Also there are scriptures to back this up.

 

[Mickey]

Only if you believe that you are perfect and do not need the Graces of deification.

Deification is never ending. There is no such thing as final theosis.

 

[Mickey]

So you don’t believe Scripture when it states that God chastises those whom he loves?

God chastises with love–not pain–and not punishment.

When I discipline my child, I discipline with love and care and tenderness.

I do not discipline my child with pain and fire and punishments. :nope:

 

[Mickey]

Unless you deny one of the two premises, then you understand that at death, our tendency and attachment for sin will be purged from our souls.

I deny nothing from Scripture. Christ died for our sins–all of our sins. We are washed by the blood of Christ. When we sin we repent–in this life.

The doctrine of purgatory/indulgences was developed 1200 years later.

 

[Mickey]

Many Protestants and Eastern Orthodox reject this truth to their spiritual detriment.

One should be extremely careful when passing judgement.

 

[Mickey]

I know that there must be a final cleansing after death but such does not require punishment.

Correct. The cleansing is a mystery. We know that God will save his faithful.

We also know that we are not punished before we enter heaven.

 

[davidv]

God chastises with love–not pain–and not punishment.

When I discipline my child, I discipline with love and care and tenderness.

I do not discipline my child with pain and fire and punishments. :nope:

Despite your intent, does not your child still experience your discipline as a pain or punishment, either physical or mental?

 

[Mickey]

When you read what is described by the term “temporal punishment” whether or not it be from Trent or the Catechism, the same concept is being described–to purify the soul of imperfections. If you read them in context, this is what is being described. So I think you actually agree with Purgatory, but you use your own words, which your final sentence above reflects nicely in the phrase “final cleansing.”

If the RC doctrine REALLY means a final cleansing or transformation before entering heaven, why does the Church not use these words? Why do they use fire, and punishment, and pain?

Credit must be given to John paul II for trying to soften this language during his tenure.

 

[Mickey]

Despite your intent, does not your child still experience your discipline as a pain or punishment, either physical or mental?

Definitely not physical. Perhaps my child perceives a mental discipline–but not pain–not punishment–not fire.

 

[Mickey]

The idea of punishment after death is a uniquely Western understanding of Purgatory which is not shared by the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches.

Thank you.

 

[Mickey]

And the Catholic Church does not teach that punishment will happen after death. It only teaches that a cleansing will happen after death.

Again we have the different wording regarding what the Church REALLY means.

 

[Mickey]

But those who sin and were ‘lukewarm’ were better to have been given the mercy of purgation than sent away completely.

I thought that the lukewarm are spit out?