Purgatory

[rinnie]

If the RC doctrine REALLY means a final cleansing or transformation before entering heaven, why does the Church not use these words? Why do they use fire, and punishment, and pain?

Credit must be given to John paul II for trying to soften this language during his tenure.

Mickey you should know better then to make a comment like that. You claim that you used to be RC. Then you should know the reason the Church uses the words that they use is because they do not re-write scripture. All they do is explain scripture.

John Paul ll may have a different way of teaching Purgatory, but the fact still remains the same as ever, it is a final cleansing and it is through fire, punishment and pain that we accquire it.

I understand that you do not except the teachings of the Church but just because you don’t will never change our beliefs. If purgatory did not exist there would not be the writings in the bible explaining the final cleansing.

There is a reason God put those scriptures in the bible. And he gave the Pope the gift of the HS to teach those scriptures to us. We believe what our Pope teaches. We as RC respect and believe what our Pope teaches us. I am sure you can respect this. But I am sure John Paul ll never tried to soften anything.

He was a great Pope as our present Pope is also. But they teach the same thing. As a Roman Catholic I thank God every day for the gift of them both to teach us and help us stay in the grace of God.

And we pray for our departed brothers and sisters who may be in Purgatory. That is the teachings of our faith.

 

[Mickey]

John Paul ll may have a different way of teaching Purgatory, but the fact still remains the same as ever, it is a final cleansing and it is through fire, punishment and pain that we accquire it.

Now, if the Scriptures REALLY taught that, then you’d be in business.

I understand that you do not except the teachings of the Church but just because you don’t will never change our beliefs.

It’s okay rinnie. I am not trying to change your mind. Only God can change hearts and minds.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I deny nothing from Scripture. Christ died for our sins–all of our sins. We are washed by the blood of Christ. When we sin we repent–in this life.

The doctrine of purgatory/indulgences was developed 1200 years later.

Ok, help me understand, and reconcile this position with the 2 premises I posed:

1. We are sinful beings, we tend toward sin on earth.
2. There is perfect purity, no such blemish in heaven.
   

 

[MarcoPolo]

If the RC doctrine REALLY means a final cleansing or transformation before entering heaven, why does the Church not use these words? Why do they use fire, and punishment, and pain?

Credit must be given to John paul II for trying to soften this language during his tenure.

Because ultimately all aspects of sin resulted from the Fall.

 

[TommyWommy]

Hi, all. Interesting discussion.

I wanted to ask: How does Paul’s “absent from the body, present with the Lord” statement from 2Cor. 5 fit into this? Because this was fed to me a lot by Fundamentalists as a ‘proof text’ against Purgatory. “See,” they would say, “Paul knows that when he dies he will leave his body and be present with the Lord. There is nothing in between death and either Hell or Heaven (the Lord’s presence).”

Just wondering how to best refute that Fundamentalist idea. Thanks!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hi, all. Interesting discussion.

I wanted to ask: How does Paul’s “absent from the body, present with the Lord” statement from 2Cor. 5 fit into this? Because this was fed to me a lot by Fundamentalists as a ‘proof text’ against Purgatory. “See,” they would say, “Paul knows that when he dies he will leave his body and be present with the Lord. There is nothing in between death and either Hell or Heaven (the Lord’s presence).”

Just wondering how to best refute that Fundamentalist idea. Thanks!

Well the first thing I’d say is “So then everyone who dies goes to heaven, right?” I mean that’s what they’re arguing the verse says, right? And we know that’s not true.

There is also plenty of Scripture talking about the holiness and perfection we must attain prior to entering heaven. A purgation of our sinful tendencies must occur. They are arguing from silence. Their interpretation contradicts the whole of Scripture. Paul is right about one thing, purgatory is not a destination, it is merely a purifying state that cannot even be defined in terms of earthly time.

 

[mardukm]

Hi, all. Interesting discussion.

I wanted to ask: How does Paul’s “absent from the body, present with the Lord” statement from 2Cor. 5 fit into this? Because this was fed to me a lot by Fundamentalists as a ‘proof text’ against Purgatory. “See,” they would say, “Paul knows that when he dies he will leave his body and be present with the Lord. There is nothing in between death and either Hell or Heaven (the Lord’s presence).”

Just wondering how to best refute that Fundamentalist idea. Thanks!

Many I know regard Purgatory as part of heaven. It is part of the experience of being “present with the Lord” after death. It is His cleansing “fire” (Latins probably would not put “fire” in quotes ).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

If the RC doctrine REALLY means a final cleansing or transformation before entering heaven, why does the Church not use these words? Why do they use fire, and punishment, and pain?

Credit must be given to John paul II for trying to soften this language during his tenure.

These elements of the afterlife are not dogma in the Catholic Church. Why should there be a need for a standard language on the matter. Can’t you just accept what a person believes on the matter without that person trying to impose his/her view on you, or you trying to impose your view on him/her (since it is not a defined matter, after all).

Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there are those who believe in the suffering imposed by the toll-house doctrine, and there are those who don’t believe in it. Can’t you just accept that there are differences in opinion on the matter since it is not defined by your Church?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

Why should there be a need for a standard language on the matter.

Because it is a supposed “infallible doctrine”?

Can’t you just accept what a person believes on the matter

Of course. Anyone is free to believe in purgatory.

Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there are those who believe in the suffering imposed by the toll-house doctrine

LOL! I was waiting for this one! I predicted that it would be introduced within the next few posts. Perhaps I am a prophet (not). And as you well know, the toll-house theory that Fr Seraphim Rose popularized is not doctrine—it is speculation.

Are you saying that purgatory is also speculation?

it is not defined by your Church?

And this is the key phrase my friend. You do not see many clergy in the Holy Orthodox Church addressing this doctrine because it does not exist–and the doctrine did not exist when the Churches were united. Perhaps I too should not discuss it.

Good advice!

 

[mardukm]

Because it is a supposed “infallible doctrine”?

Of course. Anyone is free to believe in purgatory.
LOL! I was waiting for this one! I predicted that it would be introduced within the next few posts. Perhaps I am a prophet (not). And as you well know, the toll-house theory that Fr Seraphim Rose popularized is not doctrine—it is speculation.

Are you saying that purgatory is also speculation?

And this is the key phrase my friend. You do not see many clergy in the Holy Orthodox Church addressing this doctrine because it does not exist–and the doctrine did not exist when the Churches were united. Perhaps I too should not discuss it.

Good advice!

You know very well what the DOGMA of Purgatory states. I have given it to you several times. The DOGMA does not involve these matters that you are discussing. So it would be good for you to take the “good advice” and leave it at that.

BTW, have you ever read Father Rose’s book on the matter? He give a multitude of quotes from Eastern Fathers on the matter of tollhouses. You can pretend all you want it does not exist, but Father Rose has proven otherwise.

But like I said, if you don’t want to discuss toll houses because it is not dogmatized, then you should take the “good advice” and leave these topics alone which are not dogmatized in the Catholic Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Again we have the different wording regarding what the Church REALLY means.

You’re doing the same thing when you claim you agree in the biblical principle of God’s chastisement for sin, yet simultaneously (and strangely) claim that pain and punishment
for sin is not scriptural.

Interesting that you recognize it is a matter of wording. Read my signature line below to understand the biblical exhortation on the matter.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Mickey]

You know very well what the DOGMA of Purgatory states. I have given it to you several times.

Yes, I do. I knew it well before YOU gave it to me.

The DOGMA does not involve these matters that you are discussing.

Okay.

So it would be good for you to take the “good advice” and leave it at that.

No need to get testy.

BTW, have you ever read Father Rose’s book on the matter? He give a multitude of quotes from Eastern Fathers on the matter of tollhouses. You can pretend all you want it does not exist, but Father Rose has proven otherwise.

Yes, I have read the book. But I have not given my opinion. Apparently you subscribe to the toll-house theory. You have free will to accept it if you like, but there is no doctrine on it.

But like I said, if you don’t want to discuss toll houses because it is not dogmatized, then you should take the “good advice” and leave these topics alone which are not dogmatized in the Catholic Church.

No need to get testy. However, it would be nice if the vast majority of members here also took the good advice and stop arguing as if the non-dogmatised bits and pieces are part of the doctrine.

You must remember, not everyone here has your expansive grasp of knowledge and theological expertise.

 

[Mickey]

You’re doing the same thing when you claim you agree in the biblical principle of God’s chastisement for sin, yet simultaneously (and strangely) claim that pain and punishment for sin is not scriptural.

Pain and punishment in purgatory is NOT Scriptural.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by 06convert
4. Baptism is a fresh start, any sin or effects from sin starts over from the moment of baptism. If you were to instantly die before you could sin, you would go straight to heaven.

and the reply

So then do Roman Catholics believe it is better to wait for very late in life to be baptized?

---

Volga Swim Team
2007

My comment,
**
A very asstitute observation and question.**

Actually in the early Church, Baptism was often held out to adulthood, thinking the very same thing.

The Church realized that this limited, by virtue of uncertain death,
that not everyone who wanted to be saved, were baptized in time.

The Church Doctrine of “Baptism by Blood” was alrealy well established as evidenced by Tertullian, and Augustine in the late 300’s.

The Church Doctrine on “Baptism by Desire,” was discussed for hundreds of years, and defined by the Church Council of Trent in the early 1600’s. Secession fourteen, chapter IV.

However because God is and has to be “all and everything good,” his Divine Justice, very likely saved those who trtuly desired to be saved, but were following in good conscience the teachings of the Church, that the Sacrament of Baptism, should be held off as long as possible.

Our Church, is a “Living Church” and while neither doctrine or dogma’s can be changed, our understanding of them can improve and get better.

Because infant Baptism is so common, and because this Sacrament can only be received ONCE, God who is in His Complete Goodness, is also all loving, kind and merciful.

Therefore, God Gives Catholics (oh yea, there are some very special benefits to being an IPRC) two other way’s, to aid us in cooperating with Christ in our Salvation.

The sacraments of Confession and “Known Forgiveness”

John Chapter 20:"21* Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And The Sacrament of the “Sick” also called “The Last Rites,” which similar to Baptism, removes all sins, the effects of sin and actually perfects our souls, as does Baptism, so that if one should die without committing additioanl sins, one would itmediately access Heaven:thumbsup: Unlike Baptism, this Sacrament can be received mutiple times, under perscribed conditions.

Our God is an awesome God! Amen!

 

[cazayoux]

Pain and punishment in purgatory is NOT Scriptural.

1 Cor 3:12-15
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, **he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, **but only as through fire.

Help me to understand your interpretation of this. How is it the man will suffer loss (his work tested by fire on ‘the Day’) but still be saved.
Would you say that he is in heaven and suffering loss?

michel

 

[PJM]

That is a valid concern. As you might know, the Catholic Church is a communion of 23 Churches, each having their unique spirituality and theology, yet all having the same Faith. The idea of punishment after death is a uniquely Western understanding of Purgatory which is not shared by the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. The idea of pain for the sake of holiness is a uniquely Western and Oriental understanding of Purgatory which is not shared by the Eastern Catholic Churches.

So what unites the Western, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic Churches into one Catholic Church despite these differences? It is the basic DOGMA of Purgatory which states: 1) There is a state after death and before final judgment where the soul may experience further cleansing unto holiness and perfection; 2) the prayers, suffrages, and sacrifices of the Faithful, especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, redounds to the spiritual benefit of those who are in this state after death.

Welcome to Family Fued!?

Mt. Chapter 16: 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18* And I tell you, you are Peter, * and on this rock * I will build my church, and the powers of death * shall not prevail against it. 19* I*** will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.***”

So, Brothers and Sisters who is in charge? Christ, of course.

And whom did Jesus Christ Himself appoint and CHARGE with rules and regulation of THE ONLY Church that Jesus Himself founded… St. Peter,and Peters followers (which you yourself know) because for hundreds of years you too did do.

On all, I repeat, ALL MATTERS of Faith and Morals, the single truth resides, exactly where Christ Himself placed it, and exactly where Christ Himself wants it to be even today.

Don’t get angry with me friend, it’s God Himself you have an issue with!

 

[Mickey]

Help me to understand your interpretation of this.

Everyone is judged at the final judgement.

 

[Mickey]

And whom did Jesus Christ Himself appoint and CHARGE with rules and regulation of THE ONLY Church that Jesus Himself founded… St. Peter,and Peters followers!

Amen…St Peter and ALL the apostles and all those ordained down the line of succession and all the faithful people who declare that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

 

[Saint2B]

Well the first thing I’d say is “So then everyone who dies goes to heaven, right?” I mean that’s what they’re arguing the verse says, right? And we know that’s not true.

There is also plenty of Scripture talking about the holiness and perfection we must attain prior to entering heaven. A purgation of our sinful tendencies must occur. They are arguing from silence. Their interpretation contradicts the whole of Scripture. Paul is right about one thing, purgatory is not a destination, it is merely a purifying state that cannot even be defined in terms of earthly time.

They might say that Paul is a believer, and so arguing that “not everyone goes to heaven” does not apply here. Only believers would be present with the lord if not in their body (according to them). Because, only believers experience this.

An evangelical quoted that passage alongside the Bible passage mentioned also in this thread about “passing as through fire”. One possible reconciliation is for both sides to consider some type of purgation does occur, but as the person is no longer on earth, they are outside our time (aren’t they?) and so holding this happens either over time, or in one act, would work, right?

We just happen to have non-dogmatic accounts of this taking a lot of time. Plus, I think the reference to “passing as though through fire” leads a lot of people to think of suffering.

On a semi-related note, I had read on a Catholic site that the Qumram (Dead Sea) scrolls had a Hebrew version of Tobit in it. According to accounts of how Martin Luther chose his canon of books for the Bible, they had to be in Hebrew, not just Greek. I would argue that now Tobit has to be admitted to the canon, and I think this book helps justify Purgatory? Tobit offers prayers for the dead.

 

[PJM]

Ok, help me understand, and reconcile this position with the 2 premises I posed:

1. We are sinful beings, we tend toward sin on earth.
2. There is perfect purity, no such blemish in heaven.
   

My dear friends in Christ,

As I puzzel over these post it seems to me that their is a basic ignorance of who and what the RCC is, and either denies or seems unaware that the Church is not dead. The Church is like all churches, alive and living. Growing in understanding, and searching for ways and words that do not alter doctrine or dogma’s but make them easier to understand, and to apply to our lifes.

One can only understand the RCC positional Teaching on Purgatory, by first understanding a bit about the very Nature of God.

Catholic Theology then takes this understanding of the All Good and Everything Good God, as being reflective of God’s Nature. a very logical understanding.

So is being “fair and Just” good? Of course they are! And so they are a part of God’s Nature, by which I mean that God is and HAS TO BE all fair and all Just.

The second issue that seems ignorant (please don’t take offence; I mean by this "lacking a proper understanding.) Is the issue of sin.

Now we all accept that we are sinners. Most of us agree that sins logically fall into two major classifications. Stealing a cookie is a minor sin, having an abortion is murder, thus a "Mortal: sin.

All sins effect our personal relationship with God to a greater or lesser degree. Serious; that is Mortal sins “wounds mortally” our personal relationship with God, and severs our relationship, until we “Repent and Convert.”

Catholics have the Christ orginated Sacraments of “Known Forgiveness,” (John 20:23) and the The “Last Rites” which in EFFECT, emulate the benefits of Baptism.

What many do not seem to grasp is that even when our sins are forgiven, that IS NOT “the end of the forgiveness process.”

Two examples.

1. You steal $100.00, are sorry, confess your sins, receive absolution (Know, not assumed) Forgiveness, and do the Penance given.

You still have to make ammends by repaying the money back.

1. Through Gossip you ruin somebody’s reputation. Same process: Repent, Convert, Confess, and do your penance, but you still have to do everything you can to retsore the wrong.

Does not this make simple logical sense?

That “after effect” of all sins, we term “temporal punishment.”

A great many. but not all of us will die before we have completely “made whole” again, all the damage we have caused in our lives by sinning.

And NOW God’s Justice comes into play again.

God desires all of us to join Him in Heaven, but only a few make it. (Mt. 7:13…)

Inorder to permit more souls to "make it," Christ has in a sense instituted a SPIRITUAL SOUL WASH, that we call Purgatory.

It is a place all souls without MORTAL sins (those are in HELL!)

can be and are purified, which is an absolute necessity, because GOD IS PERFECT, and we MUST be perfected inorder to get into God’s Presence. Less than Perfect woun’t do, and would violate the Perfect nature of God.

Hope this helps:shrug:

God bless