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C
cazayoux
Guest
That was a bit of a sidestep.
Please help with the questions.
1 Cor 3:12-15
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Help me to understand your interpretation of this* by at least answering these questions*.
How is it the man will suffer loss (his work tested by fire on ‘the Day’) but still be saved?
Would you say that he is in heaven and suffering loss?
michel
P
PJM
Guest
Hi Michell
Maybe I can assist you?
Let’s began by asking…
Why me?
Why now?
Why here?
The short answer is because that is God’s Will for you. But that is only part of the puzzle. We must also ask ourselves why God created humanity, not simply “different than” BUT actually “better than” all of His other Earthly creatures.
Of this we can be certain, because only humanity has a mind, intellect, memory and soul; all of which are Spiritual Like God Himself. Because God gave us MORE, God expects More. Mk. 4: 24-25…
God does not simply give us these gifts. It would be a much better
understanding to recogonize that “theses gifts are only on loan to us.”
Can we know this for sure? I think so. By the very fact that we are “finite” (have a beginning and and end.) God, our Creator is infinite. He always was, is and always will be.
The answer to the three “why questions” is in Isaiah Chapter 44:
"21 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. 22 I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you. 23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel.
In Blue is what God does for us, and in red is what God expects in return. To be sure God who all everything good and perfect, in no way benefits from anyhting we do, nor in a literal sense is God hurt by anything that we do.
Exodus chpt. 20: "**for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. **
To thank God, and to LOVE God is the reason we were Created.
Now that being the case, everything we do either pleases God or displeases God. GOd is like a great many parents; they expect
(and rightfully so) a whole lot more pleasing than displeasing.
Hebrews Chpt. 6:**9Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. **
The loss you speak of is “God’s Grace.” Grace leads to salvation.The more grace offered, accepted and correctly applied, the more likely it is that we we get to Heaven. The more Greace we deny, or don’t use correctly, the less likely we are to get to Heaven.
The lingering issue remains to be sin. What is is and what it does. One also needs a proper understanding of the terms Redeemption and Salvation. They ARE NOT synomous terms. And mean quite different things. But that is a seperate discussion.
Hope this helps:thumbsup:
M
mardukm
Guest
Pain and punishment in the afterlife that is not eternal damnation is certainly a scriptural AND patristic belief. Even your own Mark of Ephesus believed it. And you guys keep saying there is no development of doctrine in Eastern Orthodoxy. LOL!
Though I’m sure you feel Catholicism has its share of errors; sometimes, I feel modern EO’xy is just a mass of contradictions.
Blessings,
Marduk
T
The_Smiter
Guest
If only!
M
Mike_Dye
Guest
Yes we do believe that the blood of Jesus removes our sins and we are forgiven but if we are still attracted to sin or have not made full reparation for our sins we need to clean our self up in purgatory before we stand before God.
R
rinnie
Guest
I guess thats the point Mickey. You could not possibly change anyones mind. You have your view and we have the Church. Now we have You and we have the Pope. Again there is no choice. God would never leave us a Pope to teach us, and then try to change our hearts and minds. That would make no sense.Now, if the Scriptures REALLY taught that, then you’d be in business.
It’s okay rinnie. I am not trying to change your mind. Only God can change hearts and minds.
What you tend of forget for some reason Mickey this teaching comes from the Holy Spirit. We are not trying to push our views on anyone. Why would we want to. We do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You must remember scripture. Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom to Peter and Peter only. And only the Pope still today holds the keys. Those are not my words those are scripture.
M
Mickey
Guest
Good.
C
cazayoux
Guest
Amen, Amen, Amen !!Hi Michell
Maybe I can assist you?
Let’s began by asking…
Why me?
Why now?
Why here?
The short answer is because that is God’s Will for you. But that is only part of the puzzle. We must also ask ourselves why God created humanity, not simply “different than” BUT actually “better than” all of His other Earthly creatures.
Of this we can be certain, because only humanity has a mind, intellect, memory and soul; all of which are Spiritual Like God Himself. Because God gave us MORE, God expects More. Mk. 4: 24-25…
God does not simply give us these gifts. It would be a much better
understanding to recogonize that “theses gifts are only on loan to us.”
Can we know this for sure? I think so. By the very fact that we are “finite” (have a beginning and and end.) God, our Creator is infinite. He always was, is and always will be.
The answer to the three “why questions” is in Isaiah Chapter 44:
"21 Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you, you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. 22 I have swept away your transgressions like a cloud, and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you. 23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel.
In Blue is what God does for us, and in red is what God expects in return. To be sure God who all everything good and perfect, in no way benefits from anyhting we do, nor in a literal sense is God hurt by anything that we do.
Exodus chpt. 20: "**for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. **
To thank God, and to LOVE God is the reason we were Created.
Now that being the case, everything we do either pleases God or displeases God. GOd is like a great many parents; they expect
(and rightfully so) a whole lot more pleasing than displeasing.
Hebrews Chpt. 6:**9Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. **
The loss you speak of is “God’s Grace.” Grace leads to salvation.The more grace offered, accepted and correctly applied, the more likely it is that we we get to Heaven. The more Greace we deny, or don’t use correctly, the less likely we are to get to Heaven.
The lingering issue remains to be sin. What is is and what it does. One also needs a proper understanding of the terms Redeemption and Salvation. They ARE NOT synomous terms. And mean quite different things. But that is a seperate discussion.
Hope this helps:thumbsup:
I believe all of the scripture you quoted and like how you’ve tied it together.
So please help me to understand the scripture that I quoted before and to answer those two questions.
1 Cor 3:12-15
[12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw –
[13] each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[15] If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
How is it the man will suffer loss (his work tested by fire on ‘the Day’) but still be saved?
Would you say that he is in heaven and suffering loss?
michel
P
PJM
Guest
Haydocks Catholic Comentary:
“Ver. 12-15. The interpreters are divided, as to the explication and application of this metaphorical comparison, contained in these four verses. St. Paul speaks of a building, where it is evident, says St. Augustine, that the foundation is Christ, or the faith of Christ, and his faith working by charity. The difficulties are 1. Who are the builders. 2. What is meant by gold, silver, precious stones, and what by wood, hay, stubble. 4. What by fire, how every one’s work shall be tried, and how some shall be saved by fire.(PURGATORY …PJM)… but as it is also said, that every man’s works shall be made manifest, St. Augustine and others understand not the preachers only, but all the faithful. As to the second difficulty, if by the builders we understand the preachers of the gospel, then by** gold, silver, &c., is to be understood, good,** sound, and profitable doctrine; and by wood, hay, stubble, a mixture of vain knowledge, empty flourishes, unprofitable discourses; but if all the faithful are builders, they whose actions are pure, lay gold upon the foundation; but if their actions are mixed with imperfections, venial failings, and lesser sins, these are represented by wood, hay, stubble, &c. 3. By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) that the day of the Lord…shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one’s work, of what sort it is. This … Thirdly, he tells us, (ver. 14. and 15.) that some men’s works abide the fire of God’s judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men’s works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt. Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: … They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, of sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.) (Witham) — The fire of which St. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. (Calmet) , gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God’s justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.”
R
rinnie
Guest
Mickey again, You claim to have been Roman Catholic. IF you were you know that we won’t even take our babies out of the house before we take them to Church and get them baptized.
Roman Catholic give that soul to Jesus as soon as possible. I think you have to wait 3 days I forget. I know My Mother would not leave the house with us until we were baptized and the same with my kids. I do not understand You Mickey, you claim to kmow the faith, but you do not. Could not to make a statement like that.
C
cazayoux
Guest
No… life would be SO much harder without the grace of God.
We want our children to get that grace as soon as possible.
michel
M
Mickey
Guest
That is a bit odd. What is the reason behind this?
You misundersatnd my point as it relates to legalism.
Of course I believe in infant baptism.
But the RCC claims that if you were to die right after baptism, you could skip purgatory. And I am saying, if someone is scrupulous enough, they might want to time it perfectly.
R
rinnie
Guest
That is one of the most outrageous comments that have come out of your mouth yet Mickey. Tell me Mickey how could a baby after being baptised possibly sin.That is a bit odd. What is the reason behind this?
You misundersatnd my point as it relates to legalism.
Of course I believe in infant baptism.
But the RCC claims that if you were to die right after baptism, you could skip purgatory. And I am saying, if someone is scrupulous enough, they might want to time it perfectly.
Now tell me this Mickey, why would a RC not want to have a baby baptised the moment it can, You really do not know do you Mickey. You could not to make a comment like that.
To time baptism perfectly. That is insane. Let me explain it to you Mickey. THe reason the RCC has a baby baptised as soon as possible us to give that soul to JESUS CHRIST. Without giving that soul to Jesus Christ from the get go makes that a lost soul. And that soul could be very easily given to the devil thats why Mickey.
A VOW of baptism do you REJECT satan . Yes we do. Because as a RC we want our baby to have GRACE mickey. Grace from God. Right from the start. Why so that Grace is what helps them to choose right from wrong. Good from evil. Does you church not teach that also?
M
Mickey
Guest
In your eagerness to jump down my throat once again, you have completely misread my statement. I am completey in favor of infant baptism.
Amen. That is my point.
I know the teaching on baptism dear rinnie.
But let me ask you. Will an unbaptized baby go to purgatory, heaven, or some other place if he/she dies unexpectantly?
R
rinnie
Guest
But Mickey why such comments. That is what I do not understand. Once again you claim to have been RC are you saying this was not what the teaching’s of the Church are.
I am not jumping down your throat Mickey, If I appear to be. accept my apology. I just do not understand what your point is?
I mean if anyone here has ever implied that its better to wait till the end to be baptised, would never get that from the Church teachings.
Again Mickey where are you going with this may I ask? And what does it have to do with purgatory?
M
Mickey
Guest
I am simply inquiring.
If the RCC teaches that an individual would go straight to heaven having died suddenly after baptism, could someone get scrupulous about putting off baptism until later in life so as to have less time in purgatory?
The Holy Orthodox Church also teaches that an individual would straight to heaven having died suddenly after baptism, but we do not have the doctrine of purgatory.
M
Mickey
Guest
You seem to enjoy creating an illusion that I did not know my faith as an RC. I assure you, I knew it fairly well.
R
rinnie
Guest
You don’t or you would understand purgatory.You seem to enjoy creating an illusion that I did not know my faith as an RC. I assure you, I knew it fairly well.
P
PJM
Guest
Catholic Catechism:"1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God’s mercy and to pray for their salvation."
While here on earth one can neveer know with certitude, however the demonistrated Love of God for us, and knowing that our God is all-Loving and all-Merciful, strongly suggest that in God’s very Nature, His Justice will be manifested
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