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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Wrong! The doctrine of purgatory has to do with the cleansing or purification of the temporal punishment due to sins. The sins were already forgiven.
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moondweller
Guest
In this yet unredeemed body I will sin until the day I die, or, be taken up to be with the Lord at His coming for His church.
Marco, what you’re not responding to is what’s revealed in “God-breathed” Scripture regarding the believer’s sins. It’s revealed there that ALL the sins of a believer have been dealt with judicially by God, once for all, on the cross of Christ when the “Just died for the unjust” and God redeemed (purchased) him, once for all, by the shed blood of Christ.
Again, Catholic Purgatory has to do with men suffering for the cleansing of their SINS (so-called “venial”). This doctrine concerning SINS is, first of all, completely non-Biblical (not found in the Scriptures, not Apostolic ) and, secondly, rooted in unbelief in what God has revealed to us in the Scriptures concerning sin and the, once for all, historical, blood sacrifice of His beloved Son. The cross and the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory are completely incompatible, even antogonistic.
In context Paul is not talking about SINS. The word “perfect” here in the Greek implies full development, growth into maturity of godliness, not sinless perfection.
Paul’s not at all talking about achieving sinlessness while in these yet unredeemed bodies (an impossibility, which is clearly understood when you know what sin is), but spiritual growth in Christ unto maturity. Phil. 3:12 has nothing to do with Catholic Purgatory and sins. Paul taught nothing about Purgatory but the cross where all sins were dealt with by God once for all.
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moondweller
Guest
This is an incompatible statement. Just like the Biblical doctrine of the cross of Christ and the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.Wrong! The doctrine of purgatory has to do with the cleansing or purification of the temporal punishment due to sins. The sins were already forgiven.
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VociMike
Guest
But you will not sin in heaven, nor will you have any attachment to sin. Thus you will be different in heaven than you are on earth. What accounts for that difference? We simply call in purgatory, the final act of God’s mercy.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
You may think it is incompatible in your clouded judgment, but you were wrong about Church doctrine yet again.
Your “doctrine” which you arrive at very haphazardly, based on whimsical understandings that you and your Moody Bible instructors have conceived, has none of the surety of the infallible doctrine of Christ’s Holy and Catholic Church.
In that church we understand that sin wounds us in our souls. Even when that sin is forgiven, and God re-establishes our innocence, we are still wounded, and need healing. Temporal punishment is required. Another more exact term would be temporal healing or purification.
If someone commits a sin against purity, over and over through constant exposure to pornography, even after the penitent sinner is forgiven, he will still have a wounded or “ill” spirit due to that sin. That is what penitential works are meant to atone for, or in the hereafter, purgatory.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Correct. And the change at death into your heavenly self we call Purgatory.
Correct again. Making a lot of progress here.
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bookgirl32
Guest
Why do you continue to drive home a false point about a belief to the very people who hold the belief? Purgatory is for the purpose of cleansing the temporal effects of sin, not the sins themselves. Whether you agree with this statement or not, this is what Purgatory is about. It is not, nor will it ever will be, about the sins themselves. We repeatedly tell you this and yet you continue to type this statement. I’m assuming it’s because this statement is what you have built your argument against purgatory around and if you were to accept that this is a strawman argument you either would not have an argument at all or you would have to start alllllllll over in trying to find one.
Answer me a yes or no question: Regardless of if you believe the accurate definition of purgatory, can you at least accept what the accurate definition is? If you say no, then why are you even here?
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bookgirl32
Guest
Incompatable with what? He was stating the accurate definition of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory according to Catholic Doctrine. Not asking you to believe it. Do you understand that you are making something up when it comes to what you continually claim that Catholics believe about Purgatory? *No one * believes in the “purgatory” that you are currently fighting against, namely one that deals with sins themselves.
I really think you don’t understand me. I’m not trying to win you over to the Catholic side of Purgatory. I’m trying to enlighten you as to what the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory actually IS whether you believe it or not.
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Nita
Guest
You give 3 definitions – but they are all sanctification. (Someone else could probably find a way to divide it into even more areas!)
Catholicism doesn’t confound sanctification and justification – we just understand them differently from what you do. We know it was Jesus alone who merited the GRACE of our redemption, sanctification, and justification. We just don’t make the absolute separation between them that some other faiths do. We see them as interrelated, overlapping,… (excuse my non-theological terminology). And we definitely don’t break up “sanctification” into three such separate actions that they are identified by 3 different names. (Scripture doesn’t either.) To use a physical analogy that expresses the way your divisions appear to me, I’ll use physical “growth” as analagous for “sanctification”. Your divisions would be like saying the growth of a baby is something separate and different from growth that takes place as a teen; and the final growth of an adult is something different from them both. For me, it’s all growth; definitely at different stages of my existence, but still the same thing - growth.
By the way, what you call “ultimate sanctification”, I think we would be more likely to refer to as our full (or ultimate if you will) redemption. *[Romans 8:23 …as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.] * “Sanctification” is a term that I think of more as applying to purifying changes made in the soul, rather than the body. That’s personal; I’m going to have to do more digging and see if it is ever used in reference to the state of our bodies. Would appreciate any references someone may have.
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Odell
Guest
Sanctification in this life involves pain (suffering) moon
“For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . And for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant but later it brings righteousness to those who are trained by it.” Hebrews 12:6 and 11 says that earthly suffering does not violate Christ’s sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way violates Christ’s sufferings or implies that His blood was not good enough.
On the contrary, the fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification in the first and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ’s sacrifice that we get the chance for the final sanctification in the first place. If he had not suffered and died, we would not be given the final sanctification. Thus, a concept of purgatory does not imply Christ’s sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ’s sufferings that we are given the opportunity for final sanctification through purgatory.
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durhamfire
Guest
Well I agree with odell I think that suffering here on earth is what should happen because if you are not suffering durring you walk with god then you may not be walking with him at all. if you are walking with the lord and teaching people his word you will be made fun of and put down and made to suffer.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Sin wounds us. Imagine a board, if you will, and every time you sin you drive a nail into the board. The cross (and confession, subsequently) takes that nail out, but you still have the effects of the nail, thanks to concupiscence. Purgatory is fixing the warps in the board.
Ironically, no Protestant, if asked on his deathbed, would think he is as perfect as Jesus. Yet Revelation says we must be if we are to enter heaven. So when is this perfection supposed to take place? Even many Protestants will admit some form of transformation must happen, yet they won’t admit to the idea of purgatory? Being declared righteous isn’t enough, there’s no room for snow-covered dunghills in heaven a la Luther:
Matthew 23:25: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.”
Not declared clean, you have to BE clean.
As for mortal and veneial sins being Unscriptural?
1 John 5:16-17: If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
This is speaking of spiritual death, so it implies that there are sins that cause spiritual death (mortal) and sins that do not (venial). The terms are merely Latin. As usual, the church is very precise, so there is no confusion. Think of things in terms of family; of covenant. When you commit adultery, you have ruptured the bond between you and your spouse. You need to make things right, or you lose her. The same with mortal sin. You have committed a serious sin against God, and you need to confess it before you die. Otherwise as you lived apart from God in life, you will be apart from God in death, to an infinitely more severe degree. That’s why we believe if you die with unconfessed mortal sin, you go to hell. It flows directly from the catholic view of salvation as a process; as a relationship.
John 1:9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”
Verse 10 goes on to say:
“If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
The sin leading to death is the sin we refuse to acknowledge, hence, unconfessed mortal sin. Human experience obviously testifies to the validity of this teaching. Only a complete rejection of God would make him leave us. That is why a mortal sin must be serious, we must know it is serious, and we must do it of our own free will. We choose to turn away from God. Confession is how we make things right and remove the sin that is blocking us from God’s covenant family.
“When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery… But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial” St. Thomas Aquinas
“While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession” St. Augustine
Jerome: “There are venial sins and there are mortal sins. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe but a farthing. We shall have to give an accounting for an idle word no less than for adultery. But to be made to blush and to be tortured are not the same thing; not the same thing to grow red in the face and to be in agony for a long time. . . . If we entreat for lesser sins we are granted pardon, but for greater sins, it is difficult to obtain our request. There is a great difference between one sin and another” (Against Jovinian 2:30 [A.D. 393]).
Ironically, no Protestant, if asked on his deathbed, would think he is as perfect as Jesus. Yet Revelation says we must be if we are to enter heaven. So when is this perfection supposed to take place? Even many Protestants will admit some form of transformation must happen, yet they won’t admit to the idea of purgatory? Being declared righteous isn’t enough, there’s no room for snow-covered dunghills in heaven a la Luther:
Matthew 23:25: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence.”
Not declared clean, you have to BE clean.
As for mortal and veneial sins being Unscriptural?
1 John 5:16-17: If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life — to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
This is speaking of spiritual death, so it implies that there are sins that cause spiritual death (mortal) and sins that do not (venial). The terms are merely Latin. As usual, the church is very precise, so there is no confusion. Think of things in terms of family; of covenant. When you commit adultery, you have ruptured the bond between you and your spouse. You need to make things right, or you lose her. The same with mortal sin. You have committed a serious sin against God, and you need to confess it before you die. Otherwise as you lived apart from God in life, you will be apart from God in death, to an infinitely more severe degree. That’s why we believe if you die with unconfessed mortal sin, you go to hell. It flows directly from the catholic view of salvation as a process; as a relationship.
John 1:9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”
Verse 10 goes on to say:
“If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”
The sin leading to death is the sin we refuse to acknowledge, hence, unconfessed mortal sin. Human experience obviously testifies to the validity of this teaching. Only a complete rejection of God would make him leave us. That is why a mortal sin must be serious, we must know it is serious, and we must do it of our own free will. We choose to turn away from God. Confession is how we make things right and remove the sin that is blocking us from God’s covenant family.
“When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery… But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial” St. Thomas Aquinas
“While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession” St. Augustine
Jerome: “There are venial sins and there are mortal sins. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe but a farthing. We shall have to give an accounting for an idle word no less than for adultery. But to be made to blush and to be tortured are not the same thing; not the same thing to grow red in the face and to be in agony for a long time. . . . If we entreat for lesser sins we are granted pardon, but for greater sins, it is difficult to obtain our request. There is a great difference between one sin and another” (Against Jovinian 2:30 [A.D. 393]).
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rajushaja
Guest
Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
One of the temporal punishments, as we call it, of sin is the addiction to the sin. As Jesus describes it, one who sins becomes “slave to sin” (Jn 8:34). God will forgive the sin of the penitent, but the person is hurt, damaged, temporally punished, by the sin such that he has the tendency to sin again. This is an obstacle to his complete sanctification, and thus if the forgiven soul dies with this attachment remaining, he will have it purged until he is perfectly sanctified, fit for heaven.
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moondweller
Guest
This is sooooo sad.One of the temporal punishments, as we call it, of sin is the addiction to the sin. As Jesus describes it, one who sins becomes “slave to sin” (Jn 8:34). God will forgive the sin of the penitent, but the person is hurt, damaged, temporally punished, by the sin such that he has the tendency to sin again. This is an obstacle to his complete sanctification, and thus if the forgiven soul dies with this attachment remaining, he will have it purged until he is perfectly sanctified, fit for heaven.
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VociMike
Guest
Yes, our fallen nature is sad. But the fact that God freely offers us a way to become un-fallen is the furthest thing from sad. It is glorious.This is sooooo sad.
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Odell
Guest
What is sad moon is that you fail to realize that we have a tendency to sin and that is an obstacle to complete sanctification. What is sad is you fail to understand the power of the cross. It actually transforms us we have the grace to do Gods will. You fail to see this therefore God covers you. You stay covered moon. As for me I desire no longer to be dung. yes I accept the power of the cross.
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durhamfire
Guest
Before I looked into the Catholic religion I thought that I had a pretty good grip on what I thought. Well now I see that I believed all this stuff about purgatory but my church never taught anything about it. I am glad that I have learned what the Catholic church teaches
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VociMike
Guest
I think the hangup is when people talk about purgatory as punishment from God, and they assume that this means that God is inflicting suffering for the purpose of inflicting suffering. But with God, causing us suffering is never his goal. His goal is always our final and complete purification, perfection, sanctification. It is just that giving up our sin, our attachment to sin, hurts. It causes us suffering in the same sense that starting a diet and exercise regimen causes us suffering.
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moondweller
Guest
God doesn’t “offer” us a way to repair our Adamic nature. What He does do, however, is provide a whole new identity in the Last Adam, Jesus Christ the Righteous. And the one now “in Christ” does not have a righteousness of his own “but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,” (Phil. 3:9b).
According to Biblical Christianity (a Christianity based on Biblical, Divine Revelation) sin is not the issue. God dealt with sin, once for all, through the, once for all, historical, blood sacrifice of the incarnate Son:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."The believer’s sins were “wiped away” (Acts 3:19) at the time of personal belief in Christ.
The issues presented in the N.T. in respect to salvation according to the gospel are righteousness (justification) and life. Both being provided by God as gifts upon personal belief in Jesus Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; 6:23). For this reason the uniquely, Catholic doctrine of “Purgatory” is not found in Scripture. It was a doctrine added to “Christianity” by men out of unbelief in what God has revealed in the Scriptures regarding sin and the, once for all, propitiatory sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
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