purgatory

[clmowry]

Let me see if I understand. You are redeemed, but your body is not redeemed? So you are a separate entity from your body?

And how is it that many of the angels, who have no bodies, still sinned?

I didn’t ask you about salvation, I asked why you don’t stop sinning now, today, this very minute. And you didn’t answer that question, so I’ll ask again. Why do you not cease sinning now? Is it because you can but choose not to, or is it because you cannot?

Oh wait I think I get it. It’s not “moon” that sins, its his “body” that sins. So when he dies “he” is good to go since that bad old body of his will be left behind.

Cool, so everybody who dies and doesn’t take their body with them gets to go to heaven.

Yeah team!

I wish God would have stopped the Apostles and their successors from puttig all that other silly stuff into scripture to confuse us.

I think I’ll go rob a bank, my body could use the money.

Chuck

 

[paul_c]

You can water baptize someone all day long and no change will occur. If you’ll take an honest look at the Scriptural accounts only those who first believed were subsequently water baptized: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

Of course they had to have Faith before they were baptized. Baptism is only given to those that believe and who wish to be part of the church. Baptism marks them spiritually witht he sign of faith, makes them part or the church, and provides them with sufficient grace to be saved. If they don’t lose this grace through sin, then indeed, they will go to heaven.

 

[JustaServant]

Oh wait I think I get it. It’s not “moon” that sins, its his “body” that sins. So when he dies “he” is good to go since that bad old body of his will be left behind.

Cool, so everybody who dies and doesn’t take their body with them gets to go to heaven.

Yeah team!

I wish God would have stopped the Apostles and their successors from puttig all that other silly stuff into scripture to confuse us.

I think I’ll go rob a bank, my body could use the money.

Chuck

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. It’s a Gnostic view evangelicals struggle with.
Curiously, the match that lit the entire Protestant Reformation was the issue of Purgatory. How Protestants view sin and the payment for that sin is directly affected by this.

 

[paul_c]

He told him to believe and he will be saved. Just as if I were tell a starving man, “Eat this bread and you will no longer be hungry.” In the same way, the jailer believed and he was SAVED. You too, if you will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you also will be saved at the time of belief in Him. It’s a divine promise to all men, not just the Philippian jailer.

The hungry man who eats and is no hungry, but only for a short time. He then becomes hungry again and needs to repeat the process.

So it is with salvation. When we first believe and become baptized, we get the necessary grace to be saved. But if we don’t stay in the state of grace, we will cease to be saved but will again be needing a fresh infusion of grace. We need to to works of love and avoid sin to stay in the state of grace. and if we fall from Grace through sin, we must be reconciled sacramentally through the confession to a priest, repentance and penance to regain that life saving grace.

Moondweller, you have been decieved into thinking that that initial statement of Faith is sufficient. But it is not. If you had Faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, you have nothing. (1 Corithians 13). Faith without works is dead (James 2). All those that call on Jesus as Lord will not be saved, only those that do his Father’s will (Matthew 7) .Don’t you agree that all scripture is true and that it all needs to be self reconciling. Yet, your theology can never reconcile these very basis scriptural truths. Doesn’t that bother you? You have some of the truth, but unfortunately not all of the truth and the untruths that you’ve latched onto, actually negate the truths you have. Teaching people that personal sin doesn’t matter plays directly into Satan’s hands.

 

[rinnie]

I would suggest that there are many people who mix up the terms “faith” and “grace”.

Grace is Gods free gift to us, which we did nothing to deserve. Our response to Gods grace, or if you will the sign that we do want to accept that gift if you will is our response of faith completed by works (faith and works).

To argue this you put your self in the awkward situation of having to try and explain away the only legitimate bible passage in which the words “faith” and “alone” appear together:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P11W.HTM

Oh please do not get me wrong. I totally agree without Grace you can not have faith. I know there is no such thing as faith alone. It is with the power of Grace that we have and together using that Grace with Faith that we can do good works. It was her response to saying that all we need is faith. My point was without grace NOTHING is possible.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Oh wait I think I get it. It’s not “moon” that sins, its his “body” that sins. So when he dies “he” is good to go since that bad old body of his will be left behind.

[SIGN]Cool, so everybody who dies and doesn’t take their body with them gets to go to heaven. [/SIGN]
Yeah team!

I wish God would have stopped the Apostles and their successors from puttig all that other silly stuff into scripture to confuse us.

I think I’ll go rob a bank, my body could use the money.

Chuck

Would that not be great! I am with you. I guess the apostles were just teaching us wrong

 

[crazzeto]

Oh please do not get me wrong. I totally agree without Grace you can not have faith. I know there is no such thing as faith alone. It is with the power of Grace that we have and together using that Grace with Faith that we can do good works. It was her response to saying that all we need is faith. My point was without grace NOTHING is possible.

Oh, I wasn’t directing my comment at you, but rather supporting yours

 

[rinnie]

Oh, I wasn’t directing my comment at you, but rather supporting yours

Oh no thats okay. I wasn’t sure so you know how these things go. Its better to clear it up front then let people drag us through the mud

 

[moondweller]

rinnie:

Okay since you seem to know more about our faith then we do. Lets have you explain this scripture for me.

Zech. God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put in the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven so where are those souls being refined in?

Context, my friend, context. Zechariah, chapter thirteen, isn’t at all about the church Christ is presently building from His Father’s throne in heaven, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles. The church He will come again to catch up to be with Him forever.

Zechariah was a prophet to national Israel. Zechariah’s prophecy in 13:8-9 is in reference to Israel during a future time called the Tribulation at the “end of the age” (see Matt. 24:3). A specific time in Israel’s future history which is called by Jeremiah, “Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7), and which Jesus Himself prophesied about in Matt. 24:15-21. The refining of those Jews left in “IN ALL THE LAND” are the Jewish remnant that come out of the Tribulation and are ushered into the Millennial Kingdom which Christ will set up on earth at His second advent. Christ’s earthly, Millennial Kingdom is a major theme throughout the ancient Hebrew prophets. However, those prophets knew nothing of this present church age and did not speak to it.

The church will return with Christ and reign with Him during those 1000 years.

Oh! How about 1 cor. 3:17 This verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is destroying Gods temple is a bad work which is a mrotal sin which leads to death. 1 cor 3:14 15,17 purgatory which reveals the state of righteousness (114) show venial sin, v 15 shows mortal sin, v17 show all are judged after death.

How do you explain that one?

Again, context, my friend, context. 1 Cor. 3:10-15 is not at all about sins. In fact, sins are never mentioned in those verses. It about the Christian worker’s works (labors). He he built upon the “foundation” which is Christ. Paul explicitly states that “each man’s WORK will be become evident” because the quality of his work will be REVEALED (not “purged”) with fire.

There’s a lot of figurative language used in this passage. If he (the Christian worker) built on the foundation with “gold, silver or precious stones,” the fire (judgment of his WORKS) cannot destroy them. Hence, he will receive reward. If he built with “wood, hay, and straw” the fire (judgment) will consume them and no reward will be given. And yet, in verse 15 the man is still saved because he wasn’t saved by works but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

The passage is about judging and rewarding WORKS, not purging of venial sins. IOW, it’s not about Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory is not in the Bible. It’s a Catholic doctrine, not Biblical. CONTEXT, my friend, CONTEXT.

 

[moondweller]

The hungry man who eats and is no hungry, but only for a short time. He then becomes hungry again and needs to repeat the process.

That was just a grammatical example. Those who will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ receive ETERNAL LIFE. “Eternal” means everlasting. There’s no getting “hungry” again when God Himself saves the believer “by grace through faith” in Christ alone. That’s why Jesus said that those who come to Him will not hunger, and he who BELIEVES in Him will never thirst (Jn. 6:35).

Only those who have believed in Him can understand what He meant. He certainly could not have been talking about Purgatory, cuz I’m sure with all that heat a soul would get mighty thirsty. Like the rich man in Hades in Lk. 16:24.

 

[rinnie]

Context, my friend, context. Zechariah, chapter thirteen, isn’t at all about the church Christ is presently building from His Father’s throne in heaven, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles. The church He will come again to catch up to be with Him forever.

Zechariah was a prophet to national Israel. Zechariah’s prophecy in 13:8-9 is in reference to Israel during a future time called the Tribulation at the “end of the age” (see Matt. 24:3). A specific time in Israel’s future history which is called by Jeremiah, “Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7), and which Jesus Himself prophesied about in Matt. 24:15-21. The refining of those Jews left in “IN ALL THE LAND” are the Jewish remnant that come out of the Tribulation and are ushered into the Millennial Kingdom which Christ will set up on earth at His second advent. Christ’s earthly, Millennial Kingdom is a major theme throughout the ancient Hebrew prophets. However, those prophets knew nothing of this present church age and did not speak to it.

The church will return with Christ and reign with Him during those 1000 years.Again, context, my friend, context. 1 Cor. 3:10-15 is not at all about sins. In fact, sins are never mentioned in those verses. It about the Christian worker’s works (labors). He he built upon the “foundation” which is Christ. Paul explicitly states that “each man’s WORK will be become evident” [SIGN]because the quality of his work will be REVEALED /SIGN with fire.

There’s a lot of figurative language used in this passage. If he (the Christian worker) built on the foundation with “gold, silver or precious stones,” the fire (judgment of his WORKS) cannot destroy them. Hence, he will receive reward. If he built with “wood, hay, and straw” the fire (judgment) will consume them and no reward will be given. And yet, in verse 15 the man is still saved because he wasn’t saved by works but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

The passage is about judging and rewarding WORKS, not purging of venial sins. IOW, it’s not about Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory is not in the Bible. It’s a Catholic doctrine, not Biblical. CONTEXT, my friend, CONTEXT.

Wrong. 3:15 But if someones work is BURNED UP. How are you getting revealed out of that?

Now lets look at good works and bad works. What is bad works? Are you saying thats not sin? What do you consider it if God see’s something someone does as bad works?

 

[VociMike]

Oh wait I think I get it. It’s not “moon” that sins, its his “body” that sins. So when he dies “he” is good to go since that bad old body of his will be left behind.

Cool, so everybody who dies and doesn’t take their body with them gets to go to heaven.

Apparently so. And then at the resurrection of the body I guess all those in heaven will start sinning again.

If people are going to reject the divine guidance of the Church, can’t they at least think through their man-made theories for consistency?

 

[paul_c]

That was just a grammatical example. Those who will believe in the Lord Jesus Christ receive ETERNAL LIFE. “Eternal” means everlasting. There’s no getting “hungry” again when God Himself saves the believer “by grace through faith” in Christ alone. That’s why Jesus said that those who come to Him will not hunger, and he who BELIEVES in Him will never thirst (Jn. 6:35).

Only those who have believed in Him can understand what He meant. He certainly could not have been talking about Purgatory, cuz I’m sure with all that heat a soul would get mighty thirsty. Like the rich man in Hades in Lk. 16:24.

Interesting that you should quote John 6. In the second half of John 6, after he has fed the 5000 and walked on water, he told the people that all they needed to do was believe in him and eat his body and drink his blood to gain eternal life. As you know, if you read John 6:66, most of his disciples could not accept this teaching and promptly left him, leaving only the Apostles behind. Do you eat his body and drink his blood in the eucharist, or are you one of those that can not accept his true teaching? Give that some thought.

 

[moondweller]

Wrong. 3:15 But if someones work is BURNED UP. How are you getting revealed out of that?

Now lets look at good works and bad works. What is bad works? Are you saying thats not sin? What do you consider it if God see’s something someone does as bad works?

Read the whole text again (and maybe again and again), my friend. It’s ALL about works, not “venial” sins and “temporal punishment.” The fire (figurative for appraisal) REVEALS the quality of the Christian worker’s works. Figuratively the fire is revelatory, not “Purgatory.” Bad works are those that don’t comply with the foundation Paul laid, which is Christ. IOW, GRACE!!! GRACE!!! GRACE!!!

Catholic Purgatory has nothing to do with good works or receiving rewards. You’re wrong about the interpretation of the text and your own doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[moondweller]

Interesting that you should quote John 6. In the second half of John 6, after he has fed the 5000 and walked on water, he told the people that all they needed to do was believe in him and eat his body and drink his blood to gain eternal life. As you know, if you read John 6:66, most of his disciples could not accept this teaching and promptly left him, leaving only the Apostles behind. Do you eat his body and drink his blood in the eucharist, or are you one of those that can not accept his true teaching? Give that some thought.

If you’d read it carefully, Paul, it’s the ones who took His words literally that erred. It’s those who take His words literally, still, that continue to err. Chapters five and six are all about BELIEVING in Him for eternal life.

But, alas, this is the wrong thread for this discussion.

 

[paul_c]

If you’d read it carefully, Paul, it’s the ones who took His words literally that erred. It’s those who take His words literally, still, that continue to err. Chapters five and six are all about BELIEVING in Him for eternal life.

But, alas, this is the wrong thread for this discussion.

Not at all. The ones who believed him literally are the Cornerstones of the Chruch, the apostles. And sure, you have to believe first. That is step one because unless you believe you will never take the next step. And Jesus knew at this point that that was the first hurdle. But once you believe, you need to take the next step, which is to follow Jesus in doing the Father’s will. And he tells the lame man who he heals in John 5 and the adultress in John 8 to go and not sin again, so you know he cares about sin. And by John 12:26 , he says “Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there also will my servant be. The Father will honor whoever serves me. "
and he follows this in the same chapter with:
47 And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
48 Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day,
49 because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So what I say, I say as the Father told me.”
So he is taking them beyond the first step of Faith to the second step, which is to follow his example and we will be judged on the ability to do that.

And final, in the last supper discourse in John 13 he gives the new commandment:
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

And so it goes beyond faith to love, Just as St. Paul says in 1Corinthians 13.

Finally, When he offers his body and blood to us in the eucharist, it is to join with us in a physical and spiritual way. This gives us the grace to follow him and to do his will, which is to Love.

 

[Odell]

The discipline of the Lord toward His sons is not about so-called “venial” sins and “temporal punishment.”

Godly discipline is not about sins at all but leading one in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. For instance, the discipline of a coach toward his team members isn’t to punish them, but to improve their performance. The discipline of the Lord is toward the living not the dead. It has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic Purgatory. In fact, according to His Word, He knows nothing of such a place. But rather, for the true believer to be absent from the body is to be Home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-8).

for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges.

What would your coach scourge his team for? Better yet why would God scourge us? How would discipline and scourging us lead us to righteousness?

And so you know I do believe it leads to righteousness but how?

And a side note why do we need to be lead to righteousness if Christ righteousness is imputed onto us?

 

[Odell]

.I’ve also been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Sin is not joyful to me. To you, maybe. You may feel like you’re being deprived, but not me. I enjoy walking with My Lord.How does this have anything to do with “Purgatory?”

How are you able to walk with the Lord moon? sounds like your given to much credit to yourself. It just sounds like YOU YOU YOU

would you be walking with the Lord if you murdered?

all the suffering that’s suppose to be presently going on there?

Heb 5:11 At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it.

Read up on your scripture moon:thumbsup:

 

[rinnie]

Read the whole text again (and maybe again and again), my friend. It’s ALL about works, not “venial” sins and “temporal punishment.” The fire (figurative for appraisal) REVEALS the quality of the Christian worker’s works. Figuratively the fire is revelatory, not “Purgatory.” Bad works are those that don’t comply with the foundation Paul laid, which is Christ. IOW, GRACE!!! GRACE!!! GRACE!!!

Catholic Purgatory has nothing to do with good works or receiving rewards. You’re wrong about the interpretation of the text and your own doctrine of Purgatory.

You my friend must read it again and again. Lets address the simple question you never seem to answer. What are good works and bad works. Are you saying that a persons bad works are not sins? And are you saying that God does not judge us on our good works and bad works?

Then you are saying that the fire reveals the quality of the Christains workers works? You keep saying its all about works works what in your opinion are bad works, I must ask again, You are saying bad works are not sins are you not. Is that not your disagreement here? Then you are saying that we are not judged on our Good or bad works are you not?

Not just to prove a point here you are saying the fire reveals the quality of the persons works. When and where do you say that fire does this revealing. In heaven or hell then? Because it has to happen in either or according to you. There is no in between. SO you tell me?

And I never said Purgatory had anything to do with receiving rewards. Purgatory is the final cleansing period which is the fire that cleans us from the venial sins. Not revealing them. They never had to be revealed God knew them quite well at our death. You are fooling yourself if you believe we can hide anything from God.

And I never said purgatory was ever a reward, our reward comes after purgatory and the final cleansing is complete. Now sure it could be considered a reward if it came down to it or hell. But purgatory by no means is a reward in itself. If is temporal PUNISHMENT. The only reward is knowing the next step is heaven. Thats as good as it gets.

 

[moondweller]

**for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges **every son he acknowledges.

So you’re asserting that Heb. 12:6 is referring to Purgatory? Can you show me in the CCC where Heb. 12:6 is defined as Purgatory?

What would your coach scourge his team for? Better yet why would God scourge us? How would discipline and scourging us lead us to righteousness?

It leads His children (adopted through faith in Christ) to a godly walk before Him. A godly walk is a disciplined walk (see for example Rom. 12:1-2ff; Eph. 4:1ff). But none of this has anything to do with Purgatory.

And a side note why do we need to be lead to righteousness if Christ righteousness is imputed onto us?

The righteousness that comes with salvation is not one’s own but that “which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9). This required righteousness (justification) is credited (divinely reckoned) to the sinner upon belief in Christ:Rom 4:4-6 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"Don’t mix contexts. There’s a “righteous” walk before God while on this earth. And this is addressed to the “saved by grace through faith.” Not the unsaved. But then there’s a reckoned righteousness, a justification which is gifted upon faith in Christ, based on His redemptive work on the cross (see Rom. 3:24).

This reckoned righteousness goes all the way back to Abraham (Gen. 15:6). It’s always based on FAITH in God’s Word. This side of the cross it’s reckoned to the “ungodly” who believe in the Person of the risen Christ and the work of redemption He accomplished (FINISHED), once for all, on the cross, on their behalf.