purgatory

[VociMike]

moondweller, will you begin to sin again in heaven when you are united with your resurrected body? Why or why not?

 

[moondweller]

You my friend must read it again and again. Lets address the simple question you never seem to answer. What are good works and bad works.

No, Rinnie, you’re sadly missing the point. WORKS, and REWARDS rendered for them, have NOTHING to do with Catholic Purgatory. But you’re applying 1 Cor. 3:10-15 to your doctrine of Purgatory.

Are you saying that a persons bad works are not sins?

Works are not sins, period. There are works done in this life that have value (figuratively referred to as gold, silver & precious stones; materials that are noncombustible). Contrasted with works that have no intrinsic value (figuratively referred to as wood, hay, straw; combustible materials). But there are no such things as “good” sins and “bad” sins, or the idea that good sins receive rewards and the bad do not. Can you grasp the absurdity of your argument??

And are you saying that God does not judge us on our good works and bad works?

Christ will judge a true believer’s LABORS! That is, how he BUILT upon the foundation, which is Christ Himself: the message of His Person and sacrificial work. But the true believer Himself “does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24; cf Jn. 3:17-18).

Then you are saying that the fire reveals the quality of the Christains workers works? You keep saying its all about works works what in your opinion are bad works,

I, and Paul, already told you. Those works that are not compatible with the foundation of Christ. Those which do not conform to the gospel of GRACE. IOW, if you’re a true believer and preach works (of course I, personally, would doubt if you’ve actually believed) as a part of salvation, your “works” will burn and no reward is rendered. Why? Because your teaching does not conform to the foundation Paul laid, which is Christ and salvation “by grace through faith” in Him. But this appraisal of works is only for those who have already been “saved by grace through faith.”

 

[moondweller]

moondweller, will you begin to sin again in heaven when you are united with your resurrected body? Why or why not?

Of course not. Why? Scripture itself answers your questionhil 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Jesus redeemed the whole man: body, soul and spirit. The future redemption of our body (Rom. 8:23) is the consummation of our divine redemption and the final act of divine adoption (see 1 Jn. 3:2; Col. 3:4).

This uniting of the believer with his resurrected, or, for some, translated, body is yet future (1 Thess. 4:14-18).

 

[moondweller]

How are you able to walk with the Lord moon? sounds like your given to much credit to yourself. It just sounds like YOU YOU YOU

I walk by faith, just as my father Abraham did. Does that mean he never sinned? No. But I, like Abraham, have been reckoned righteousness based on faith alone (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:4-5).

would you be walking with the Lord if you murdered?

To walk by faith is to walk by the Spirit; and when a true believer walks by the Spirit he won’t carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16).

I don’t think you’re at all familiar with spiritual regeneration which occurs at the time of personal belief in Christ.

Heb 5:11 At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it.

Read up on your scripture moon:thumbsup:

This has to do with God’s dealings with believers here on earth, in this life. It has nothing to do with Purgatory. Can you show me in the CCC where it references Heb. 5:11 to its teaching on Purgatory?

 

[VociMike]

Of course not. Why? Scripture itself answers your questionhil 3:20-21 "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."Jesus redeemed the whole man: body, soul and spirit. The future redemption of our body (Rom. 8:23) is the consummation of our divine redemption and the final act of divine adoption (see 1 Jn. 3:2; Col. 3:4).

This uniting of the believer with his resurrected, or, for some, translated, body is yet future (1 Thess. 4:14-18).

So you just provided more evidence of purgatory. “transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory”.

Thank you for pointing out that confirmation in scripture.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You can water baptize someone all day long and no change will occur. If you’ll take an honest look at the Scriptural accounts only those who first believed were subsequently water baptized: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

No change? Nothing at all, eh?

Many people believe that baptism is merely a symbolic act that one performs before the community of believers as an outward sign of an inward decision to accept Christ as one’s “personal Lord and Savior”. Is this view biblical or does God view baptism differently? Let’s see what the Bible has to say.

Baptism Commanded by Jesus

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.”

Some argue that in this verse, “born of water” refers to the placenta fluid of physical birth. However, there is no scriptural basis for this interpretation. Instead, as the references from Ezekiel and the New Testament passages make clear, the “water” connected with the Holy Spirit is the water of the sacrament of baptism – not that of physical birth. Jesus’ words, understood properly, tell us that unless one is “born of baptism and the Spirit” he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This point is underscored by the fact that Jesus and the disciples went out to baptize immediately following this verse.

Titus 3:5
He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Rebirth? As in “born again”? Renewal by the Holy Spirit? Isn’t that regeneration?

Matthew 28:19
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

In this passage containing the very last instructions Jesus gave His disciples, we see how important baptism was to Him. He did not say, “Go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to accept me as their personal Lord and Savior and baptizing them as an outward symbol of this inward acceptance…”

Baptism Saves

Mark 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Baptism Washes Away Sin

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

At Pentecost, Peter told the crowd to “be baptized…for the forgiveness of…sins.” After that, “you will receive…the Holy Spirit”. Once again, we see the elements of Water and Spirit…just as Ezekiel prophesied. Note too, that this promise is for “you and your children” – a clear endorsement of infant baptism.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Baptism Makes Us Part of the Body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

(cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Baptism is Related to Impartation of the Holy Spirit

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

In this Old Testament passage, the prophet clearly speaks of the sacrament of baptism that was to come. Notice the elements: water is sprinkled, the person is actually made clean (not merely imputed to be or called clean), and they receive a new spirit along with the gift of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel makes a connection between washing in Water and the receipt of the Spirit of God.

However, sometimes when the Old Testament is referenced, people will say, “Well, we follow the New Testament.” in an attempt to dismiss an Old Testament passage. They need to remember the following words from the New Testament:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Consequently, we can see that all of the Bible must be taken into account when we seek to understand doctrine.

From these passages, we can see that baptism is commanded by Jesus, that baptism saves us, that baptism washes away sin, that baptism makes us part of the body of Christ, and that water baptism is connected very closely with the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, baptism can hardly be viewed as a merely symbolic act.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s all part of believing, my friend. You’ll notice that those Jews Peter was preaching Christ to were “pierced to the heart” (Acts 2:37). IOW, convicted of their sin. And the account goes on to say that those who received (i.e., believed) his word were subsequently baptized (2:41). They believed Peter’s word concerning the bodily resurrection of Jesus their Messiah whom they knew was crucified, and God saved them by GRACE through FAITH.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Unbelief?

Moondweller-

This is hypothetical, but I’d like to ask what would Peter have thought of someone who might have said, “I believe Jesus is Lord, but I just had my hair done, and I don’t want to get it wet.”

How would the Church have reacted to a “believer” who refused baptism for any reason?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yea but you don’t suffer loss in heaven. So we catholics say

If not, then why the tears?



“He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

(Revelation 21:4)

 

[moondweller]

So you just provided more evidence of purgatory. “transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory”.

Thank you for pointing out that confirmation in scripture.

What does this have anything to do with Catholic Purgatory? From where do you get the teaching that those in your Purgatory have glorified, resurrected or transformed bodies?

Anyway… Scripture tells us that this event occurs at the coming of Christ for His church in the air. You’re very confused, my friend (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

 

[VociMike]

What does this have anything to do with Catholic Purgatory? From where do you get the teaching that those in your Purgatory have glorified, resurrected or transformed bodies?

Anyway… Scripture tells us that this event occurs at the coming of Christ for His church in the air. You’re very confused, my friend (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Purgatory is all about the process of our transformation from sinful creatures to perfected, purified creatures. You have supported that doctrine by noting in scripture that our bodies will be included in this transformation, when they are resurrected. This of course makes perfect sense, since we are corporeal beings, and cannot be perfected unless our bodies are perfected. You support our doctrine even as you think you are disproving it.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller-

This is hypothetical, but I’d like to ask what would Peter have thought of someone who might have said, “I believe Jesus is Lord, but I just had my hair done, and I don’t want to get it wet.”

How would the Church have reacted to a “believer” who refused baptism for any reason?

No, Randy, what I said in my post was not hypothetical. But yours is clearly is.

Hypothetically they could have said, “Well, then, come back in a couple of days when your hair is dirty and we’ll baptize you then” (baptism saves no one).

Hypotheticals can get really absurd, cant’ they? If not down right silly.

 

[moondweller]

Purgatory is all about the process of our transformation from sinful creatures to perfected, purified creatures. You have supported that doctrine by noting in scripture that our bodies will be included in this transformation, when they are resurrected. This of course makes perfect sense, since we are corporeal beings, and cannot be perfected unless our bodies are perfected. You support our doctrine even as you think you are disproving it.

But you have not yet presented anything that supports your doctrine of Purgatory. So, what you’re presenting here is first an assertion and then a rationalization. :tiphat:

Paul does not teach that the true believer’s body will be resurrected or translated into conformity with a perfection caused by one’s own suffering in a place called “Purgatory,” but in conformity to the risen Christ’s own glorified body (Phil. 3:20-21). You read into the passage something that’s not even remotely there.

 

[bookgirl32]

Paul does not teach that the true believer’s body will be resurrected or translated into conformity with a perfection caused by one’s own suffering .

You have the doctrine of Purgatory backwards. The perfection is caused by God alone while HE is doing the cleaning. The suffering is a consequence, a result of what is happening in Purgatory. It is not a cause of anything. God is causing the cleansing, the cleansing is painful. This does not in anyway make the pain the cause of the perfection.

 

[moondweller]

No change? Nothing at all, eh?

Nope, no change at all. You’re confused with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:4-6). All who personally believe in Christ are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, sealed by Him to the day of redemption, and regenerated. Water has no power to do any of this.

 

[VociMike]

But you have not yet presented anything that supports your doctrine of Purgatory. So, what you’re presenting here is first an assertion and then a rationalization. :tiphat:

Are you asserting that in this entire thread no support of the Catholic doctrine has been provided?

Paul does not teach that the true believer’s body will be resurrected or translated into conformity with a perfection caused by one’s own suffering in a place called “Purgatory,” but in conformity to the risen Christ’s own glorified body (Phil. 3:20-21). You read into the passage something that’s not even remotely there.

You confuse the “what” and the “how”.

 

[moondweller]

You have the doctrine of Purgatory backwards. The perfection is caused by God alone while HE is doing the cleaning. The suffering is a consequence, a result of what is happening in Purgatory. It is not a cause of anything. God is causing the cleansing, the cleansing is painful. This does not in anyway make the pain the cause of the perfection.

You’re rationalizing.

 

[bookgirl32]

Nope, no change at all. You’re confused with the baptism of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 4:4-6). All who personally believe in Christ are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, sealed by Him to the day of redemption, and regenerated. Water has no power to do any of this.

You wrote this in post #68:

Something in my “innermost makeup” DID change. But it changed at the moment of personal belief in Christ.

How does something in your innermost makeup change, and yet there is “no change at all”?

 

[bookgirl32]

You’re rationalizing.

Nice argument, that was impressive.

 

[moondweller]

You wrote this in post #68:

How does something in your innermost makeup change, and yet there is “no change at all”?

I already answered all of this. Please refer to my previous posts.