purgatory

[guanophore]

Some of the things on your list are non essentials such as head coverings, music, etc.

Can you please provide the list of what is “essential” in the NT and what is not? I am having trouble finding the verse/verses.

There are pseudo christian denominations that do not strictly adhere to Scriptural teachings. …all claim to be True Christians but their erroneous/false teachings/doctrines shows other wise.

So, as long as they agree with what you define as “true” they are not erroneous teachings?

However, to claim that the RCC is united in doctrine is a fallacy. For example, many RC theologians believe that there are many errors in the Bible, contrary to the former position of the church.

You seem to be suffering from a misunderstanding here yankee. You clearly state “theologians” and contrast them with Catholic doctrine. You see, the Apostolic faith is not defined by modern day speculations. It is a once for all commitment of teaching to the Church that cannot be changed. “Theologians” or anyone else who does not embrace it is not really Catholic. To the exent they are not in unity with the Once for All Deposit of Faith, they have forsaken Catholic doctrine.

they believe certain portions of the Bible are myths.The Eastern church disagrees so violently with the Catholic doctrine of the papacy that the Orthodox church has tried to block visits by the pope to Orthodox lands.

Are you suggesting that disagreement with the doctrine invalidates the doctrine itself?

The idea of unity of doctrine before the Reformation is fiction.

I am sure you must believe this, or else you would have to seriously reconsider your Protestant position. However, because of God’s promise, the Church has been led into all Truth, despite the corruption of certain individuals claiming to be Catholic wh were not.

Churches with bishops have suffered as many divisions as churches without bishops. There have even been times of more than one pope at one time.

Certainly the authority appointed by God has often been corrupted by the failings of men. That does not invalidate the gift of God.

The presence of a false claim to authority does not invalidate the authority either.

One of the biggest differences between the Catholics and Orthodox is the doctrine that the popes of Rome have absolute authority over all other bishops throughout Christianity and that they are infallible in matters of doctrine.

It is very possible that you have a misunderstanding about the teaching of infallibility as well.

Both dogmas had never existed until the 9th century, when more and more Roman popes were seeking to assert their spiritual authority as the supreme expression of the Faith.

No, yankee, this is not the case. Infallibility was a gift given to the Church after the Resurrection. It did not just materialize centuries later. The authority Christ gave to Peter also occurred before the Ascension.

I also think that it was not spiritual authority claims that created the problems, but temporal ones. It was not until the Bishop of Rome became involved in secular rule and politics that problems developed.

Eastern Orthodoxy cannot accept such beliefs because these ideals were never part of the early Church.

It appears you have some study of Orthodoxy to do as well.

The RCC also began to believe in another new doctrine, which states that the Virgin Mary was conceived and born without sin. The early Church, including Eastern Orthodoxy, believes that the Virgin Mary was capable of sinning.

You have just demonstrated that you don’t understand the doctrine of the immaculate conception, either. Of course Mary was capable of sinning. That, however, like the rest of your complaints, have nothing to do with this thread.

The Catholic church about 1000 years ago decided to force all priests to be celibate. But the Orthodox church continues to practice the apostolic tradition of married priests.

No, yankee, no one can “force” the gift of celibacy on anyone. This is also outside the scope of this thread. You have so many misunderstandings about the Catholic faith, I can understand why it is difficult for you to focus.

The list goes on…

Well, if you are interested in learning, then I suggest you start a thread on each one separately. If you continue to attempt to derail threads like this, you will lose your posting privileges.

 

[adriancombe]

Context is my argument. *Tell me, does 1 Jn. 1:6,8,10 describe a true believer or the one’s John is exposing in his Epistle? *Can a true believer say he has not sinned? *It was the conviction of sin that drove him to faith in Christ in the first place; that he would be “saved by grace through faith” in Him. *

What you need to understand is that though John was writing “to” believers he wasn’t always writing “about” believers. *Until you understand this even the Greek is useless. *Funny thing about ALL languages, ancient or modern, they ALL communicate within a context, and its the context that determines the interpretation and the use of certain words used. *In fact, in ALL languages, often the same word can have different meanings based on the context in which it is used.

Young’s Literal Translation 1 John 1:9
if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;
1:9 *ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας

The verse in question is v. 9. Whatever else the context does or does not mean, the meaning of the immediate verse in question is inescapable and stands on its own. The subject is ‘we’ (implied in the original Greek but necessitated by the number and person of ὁμολογῶμεν.) We is the nominative plural personal pronoun - simply put - it applies to the writer, St. John the Apostle. So - it applies to Christians! Quit trying to weasel out of it! Plain as day, God says you must continually confess your sins to be repeatedly forgiven and purified.

 

[yankee_drifter]

When you sin, don’t you think you’ll still be held accountable to God for that sin? Christ’s on the cross is not a free pass. I know you don’t think that, but you come across as preaching that. When you say that Christ died for our sins of the past, present, and future, where does any kind of concept of punishment and accountability come into play. Forget Purgatory for a second. If you sin this life, don’t you think that God can sometime punish you for that sin? I too believe Christ died for ALL of our sins past, present, and future, but it doesn’t do away with accountability.

Where does any kind of concept of punishment come into play? Jesus bore our punishment. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1 Pet 2:24) On the cross Christ willingly took on our sin and bore its penalty. God chastises the believer when he sins, but all the punishment was laid on Christ. We are covered by His blood. The Scriptures teach that there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. You and I can’t pay for it. There’s no other way. Nothing else can satisfy a Holy God but atonement through the blood of Christ. The OT sacrifices were not perfect. The sacrifice of Christ was. Jesus Christ is the perfect once for all sacrifice and we are no longer under the law, but under grace. He freely offers salvation because He paid our sin debt in FULL. This does not mean, however, that we can continue to sin. To truly love God and believe on the Son, we abhor sin, but we also acknowledge that we can’t help but sin and this is where God’s grace comes in. Heb 1:3 tells us that Christ purged our sins. He completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him. (1 John 1:7, 2:2)

If we are held accountable for our confessed sins that God promised not to remember anymore but cleanses us of all unrighteousness, then why did Christ die on the cross for? We make God a liar to say He forgives when we confess and remembers those sins no more, but we still must be punished for it. The RC position is that Christ made only partial payment for sins. We must do the rest. That Christ merely only opened the door to heaven making it possible for man to merit entrance through a sacramental system. Christ did not give us a system -He gave us HIMSELF.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where does any kind of concept of punishment come into play? Jesus bore our punishment. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1 Pet 2:24) On the cross Christ willingly took on our sin and bore its penalty. God chastises the believer when he sins, but all the punishment was laid on Christ. We are covered by His blood. The Scriptures teach that there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. You and I can’t pay for it. There’s no other way. Nothing else can satisfy a Holy God but atonement through the blood of Christ. The OT sacrifices were not perfect. The sacrifice of Christ was. Jesus Christ is the perfect once for all sacrifice and we are no longer under the law, but under grace. He freely offers salvation because He paid our sin debt in FULL. This does not mean, however, that we can continue to sin. To truly love God and believe on the Son, we abhor sin, but we also acknowledge that we can’t help but sin and this is where God’s grace comes in. Heb 1:3 tells us that Christ purged our sins. He completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him. (1 John 1:7, 2:2)

If we are held accountable for our confessed sins that God promised not to remember anymore but cleanses us of all unrighteousness, then why did Christ die on the cross for? We make God a liar to say He forgives when we confess and remembers those sins no more, but we still must be punished for it. The RC position is that Christ made only partial payment for sins. We must do the rest. That Christ merely only opened the door to heaven making it possible for man to merit entrance through a sacramental system. Christ did not give us a system -He gave us HIMSELF.

Yankee_drifter continues to knock down the straw men he sets up because he will not listen to and absorb what Catholics have explained to him about Catholic theology.

In this example, Yankee_drifter continues in his misunderstanding that Purgatory is about the forgiveness of sin. He fails to grasp the distinction between the eternal and temporal effects of sin.

He also fails to recognize the fact that Jesus established the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church as the means by which we receive grace from God. Consequently, he reduces the plan of God to a mere “system” that he dismisses as being of human origin.

 

[bmw8901]

Where does any kind of concept of punishment come into play? Jesus bore our punishment. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1 Pet 2:24) On the cross Christ willingly took on our sin and bore its penalty. God chastises the believer when he sins, but all the punishment was laid on Christ. We are covered by His . The Scriptures teach that there can be no remission of sin **without the shedding of **. You and I can’t pay for it. There’s no other way. Nothing else can satisfy a Holy God but atonement through the of Christ. The OT sacrifices were not perfect. The sacrifice of Christ was. Jesus Christ is the perfect once for all sacrifice and we are no longer under the law, but under grace. He freely offers salvation because He paid our sin debt in FULL. This does not mean, however, that we can continue to sin. To truly love God and believe on the Son, we abhor sin, but we also acknowledge that we can’t help but sin and this is where God’s grace comes in. Heb 1:3 tells us that Christ purged our sins. He completely purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him. (1 John 1:7, 2:2)

If we are held accountable for our confessed sins that God promised not to remember anymore but cleanses us of all unrighteousness, then why did Christ die on the cross for? We make God a liar to say He forgives when we confess and remembers those sins no more, but we still must be punished for it. The RC position is that Christ made only partial payment for sins. We must do the rest. That Christ merely only opened the door to heaven making it possible for man to merit entrance through a sacramental system. Christ did not give us a system -He gave us HIMSELF.

Thank you for your reply. I am not talking about our original conversion experience whether that be having a Born Again experience in the Evangelical churches or Baptism, Confession, and Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

I asking you that after you got saved do you still sin? ** Does God still not hold you accountable for this sin?** I believe He does, I think Hebrews 10:26 demonstrates this: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.” That would seem to indicate that AFTER you get saved your sins still matter and you are still held accountable for them. I don’t think this cheapens Christ at all.

And I see this demonstrated in Evangelical Churches as well. The Baptist church my wife and I attend has Alter Calls. Besides offering the original call to repentance to people who have never accepted Christ, many in the congregation who have been Christian for a long time go up and get on their knees asking forgiveness to God for some sin in their lives. It usually has to do with some topic the sermon was on or something on their mind. This shows people still struggle with sin and are sorry for it. But why be sorry for it if Christ’s forgive them of past, present and future sins? And I agree with you that is what His what His did, however, you act as if sin, punishment, a penchant to sin, repentance, etc are no longer a reality after a conversion experience. I agree that Christ covers all sins, but I still think God will punish us if we sin.

I’ll give you an example from my life. I was raised Catholic and confirmed. I didn’t give it a lot of thought, which is sad really. But I was “Born Again” at 17. Now after this experience, I became an even worse sinner than I was before. I don’t know why. Perhaps because I was becoming and , going to college, etc. Every time I sinned I justified it by thinking, “Well, Christ died for my sins and I can just confess to this later.” This was completely wrong, and I know that even Protestantism wouldn’t teach this. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying this was your view or your position at all. It was mine and very sad. I knew I was fooling myself.

Now, a few years later at 26, I’m starting to re-exam Catholicism again. And it is quite interesting, but I find myself wanting to serve God and serve others. Again, it may because I’m a little older and a little more mature but I really want to love God and love others. How does Catholicism do that? I believe because it stresses Christ’s teachings on the separating of the Sheep and the Goats, the Corporal Works of Mercy, the Beatitudes, etc. that I have been motivated to actually do something.

I’m not saying that Evangelical Churches don’t teach these things, but it is much more difficult to understand. They say things like, “show your love to God,” or “give your problems to God” or “we need to magnify the Lord” etc. I never knew what these things meant or how to act on them. Maybe it was my own ignorance, but these cliches didn’t do anything from me. Now when I consider Catholicism, I hear “serve God by serving others” or “love others” or the Corporal Works of Mercy, and I can actually understand what I’m supposed to be doing. Off topic, I notice the hymns reflect this as well. Look at the Catholic hymn “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” and the rich understand and theological truth to the lyrics. Then look at “Lord We Lift Your Name on High” sung in the Evangelical churches. It’s not bad, it just not as deep and full of a lot of cliches.

I hope many of you won’t be offend by this post because it’s not meant to be offensive. I also made it personal because it may help you understand my line of thinking and where I am coming from. Too often we can go back and forth just giving versus to counteract the other. That’s fine but we all need to be honest with each other.

More directly to your post, do you think that once a person is saved, God will never punish them again? Again, I’m not talking in terms of Heaven and Hell punishment either.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Moondwellers difficulty is that he/she does sin but she has no sacrament of Confession to remedy it.

Christ paid for these sins at Calvary. We can do nothing to pay for them. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. No cleansing. Confession needs only to be directed to God. We need no sacrament. Man was once separated from God because of sin. Jesus reconciled sinners to God, thereby making a way for us to go straight to our heavenly Father. Although those who are born-again believers in Jesus Christ, still do sin because of our fallen nature, those sins were nailed to the Cross and when we repent of them, God is faithful to forgive. He nowhere requires any purification after death.

 

[Thing]

Christ paid for these sins at Calvary. We can do nothing to pay for them. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. No cleansing. Confession needs only to be directed to God. We need no sacrament. Man was once separated from God because of sin. Jesus reconciled sinners to God, thereby making a way for us to go straight to our heavenly Father. Although those who are born-again believers in Jesus Christ, still do sin because of our fallen nature, those sins were nailed to the Cross and when we repent of them, God is faithful to forgive. He nowhere requires any purification after death.

Can I attempt to break this down;

1. Christ paid for all sins.
2. We can do nothing to pay for them.
3. Confession only directed to God.
4. No Sacrament of confession.
5. If you are born again you are forever saved.
6. If you are born again you still sin.
7. No purification after death.
8. Christ paid for all sins.

Christ paid for all sin from the creation of man to the end of time. This does not mean that everyone will go to heaven though. Those in Hades at Jesus’ death who were not in Abrahams Comfort did not go to heaven. Christ pays for all sins but not all sinners accept Christs gift.

1. We can do nothing to pay for them.

See above. Christ did it all. If we cannot accept His gift then we cannot possess His gift.

1. Confession only directed to God.

Jesus breathed on the Apostles; As the Father hath sent Me so I send you, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins ye forgive they are forgiven, whose sins ye retain they are retained.

"A sacrament, as defined in Hexam’s Concise Dictionary of Religion is what Roman Catholics believe to be “a rite in which God is uniquely active.” Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as “a visible sign of an invisible reality.”

Jesus gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins through this Sacrament of Confession.

1. No Sacrament of confession.

Jesus breathed on the Apostles; As the Father hath sent Me so I send you, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins ye forgive they are forgiven, whose sins ye retain they are retained.

"A sacrament, as defined in Hexam’s Concise Dictionary of Religion is what Roman Catholics believe to be “a rite in which God is uniquely active.” Augustine of Hippo defined a Christian sacrament as “a visible sign of an invisible reality.”

Jesus gives the Apostles the power to forgive sins through this Sacrament of Confession

1. If you are born again you are forever saved.

Abide in Me - means to wait; to pause; to delay; to stay; to continue in a place; to have one’s abode; to dwell; to sojourn with Christ.

John 15 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

We must abide in Him; it is no certainty that we will continue to abide in Him or He would not ask His disciples to abide in Him.

1. If you are born again you still sin. [sin separates you from God]

Use the Sacrament He instituted to continue to Abide in Him.

1. No purification after death.

Matthew 5 25 Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.

If you have sins on your soul which you have not dealt with voluntarily before you die, the adversary will deliver you to the judge and him to the officer and you will be cast into prison untill you have paid the very last farthing.

Your sins must be purged in this world or in the world to come before you will enter heaven.

 

[moondweller]

Randy Carson:

In your opinion, do true believers ever sin?

Certainly! As long as we’re in this yet unredeemed body; IOW, till the day we die or be taken up.

I’ve answered this many times in previous posts, Randy. So please don’t ask it again. And the point I’ve made before is that your doctrine of Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief in that it expresses unbelief in the Divinely revealed fact that God dealt with ALL our sins (past prestent & future), having made purification of them through sacrificial blood (Heb. 1:3b). A MAJOR Biblical theme, foreshadowed in the O.T., beginning in Genesis with God rejecting Adam and Eve trying to cover themselves with fig leaves, and the shedding blood in order to clothes them Himself (Gen. 3:21), to the Day of Atonement as prescribed in the Law of Moses for national Israel’s sins. All this prefigured the one FINAL sacrifice of the incarnate Son, Who, by the shedding of His blood would take away sins (Heb. 9-10).

The writer of Hebrews compares the Mosaic sacrificial system to Christ’s, once for all, FINAL sacrifice by which He, once for all, takes away sins:Heb 10:11 "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."That is, sanctified in Him. All true believers are now sanctified in the risen Christ (Himself an Adam) in whom there is NO SIN. This now being the true believer’s eternal identity.

Your doctrine of Purgatory denies all of this. And for this reason it’s a doctrine rooted in unbelief.

 

[moondweller]

BMW8901:

It’s important to remember that Purgatory is NOT a physical place. It’s a condition or process. Don’t think of it in terms of Medieval literature or art. That’s not it at all.

On what do you base this assertion?

It’s an amazing thing that Catholics pray for a shorter stint in Purgatory for their loved ones, and thousands, in the past, have paid money to the church for that reason, yet you claim it’s not a place at all. It is amazing that Catholics are presently suffering terribly for “un-absolved” sins in a non-place for which others pray they might have an early release. BMW, it’s not at all important to “remember” that Purgatory is not a physical place. What’s truly important to realize is that the doctrine of Catholic Purgatory has not even a shed of Divine revelation to support it. In fact, the doctrine itself militates against what IS Divinely revealed concerning sin, the sinner, and the purification of sin through personal belief in the gospel message of Jesus Christ, God’s sin-bearer.

To Moondweller: When you sin, don’t you think you’ll still be held accountable to God for that sin? Christ’s on the cross is not a free pass. I know you don’t think that, but you come across as preaching that. When you say that Christ died for our sins of the past, present, and future, where does any kind of concept of punishment and accountability come into play.

The cross of Christ:2 Cor 5:21 He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin {to be} sin (on the cross) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."When you talk in terms like “punishment” and “accountability” you’re talking judicial language.

It’s Divinely revealed that ALL our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross - He bore them all (1 Pet. 2:24). EVERY sin we’ve ever committed, commit, and will commit in these yet unredeemed bodies God has dealt with judicially, once for all, at Calvary. The result being for every true believer:Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."This is God acting in righteousness, wholly on the basis of Christ’s redeeming work - to be believed in, rested upon, apart from all human works whatsoever.

Justification of sins, as revealed in the Scriptures, is a sovereign judicial (not creative) act of God, based solely on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When a sinner is to be justified, then righteous is that which he is not. But he believing, God counts (reckons) him, holds him as righteous (see Rom. 4:5). The true believer has no more righteousness (as a quality) than when he a moment ago believed. But he now stands in ALL Christ’s acceptance by the act of God, the Judge. No degree of sanctification or even glorification, for that matter, is the basis of his being declared righteous, but the blood of Christ only, and His resurrection - the sacrifice of Christ and God’s sovereign act in view of it (see Rom. 3:24; 4:25 - 5:1-2).

Your response in unbelief would be: “But doesn’t God still hold us accountable for our sins?” My response would be, “Read the above again.”

You see, BMW, not only is there no Divine support for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but there’s no Divine support for its partner in crime, the doctrine of “Temporal Punishment.” Why? Because it is Divinely revealed that the sacrifice of Christ put away sin, once for all, by the sacrifice of Himself:Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."And men enter into a saved relationship with God “by grace through faith” in the Apostolic message of what God accomplished via the incarnation of the Son.

I’m still looking for the “truth.” That being said, the people in this post have been very nice to you and have tried to tell you exactly what they believe. You continuously misrepresent and repeat yourself over and over. Try to see their point of view and really understand their theology. I’ve heard it once say that you can only understand another person’s argument if you can defend it. I don’t think you understand what they are saying at all.

(1) I don’t believe you’re on the fence and are looking for the truth. (2) Please go back here and point out to me where I have falsely presented, and lack personal understanding, on the Catholic doctrine on Purgatory and Temporal Punishment.

Of course they, and now you, claim I don’t understand it, but I most certainly do.

 

[moondweller]

Thing:

Moondwellers difficulty is that he/she does sin but she has no sacrament of Confession to remedy it.

The conundrum for her is ‘what to do with the sin’ after she has already been ‘saved’.
No sin enters heaven.
She believes believers are free from sin.
Yet she knows that she sins in her life.

I’ll ask again: Who’s “she?” And I’ll say again: I have never said true believers are free from from sinning. But I do believe God’s Word which states that the true believer, now in the risen Christ, has been “freed from sin” having died with Christ “to sin,” once for all.

There’s the difference between you and me, Thing. I don’t distort God’s Word nor do I disbelieve it.

 

[moondweller]

adriancombe:

Young’s Literal Translation 1 John 1:9
if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;
1:9

The verse in question is v. 9. Whatever else the context does or does not mean, the meaning of the immediate verse in question is inescapable and stands on its own.

This is a very silly thing to say. There is no verse free of context. And in context John is not speaking about believers but those who (1) “say” they have fellowship with God and yet walk in darkness (1:6), (2) adhere to a false notion and “say” that they have no sin (1:8) and (3) “say” they have not sinned (1:10).

We is the nominative plural personal pronoun simply put - it applies to the writer, St. John the Apostle. So - it applies to Christians! Quit trying to weasel out of it! Plain as day, God says you must continually confess your sins to be repeatedly forgiven and purified.

“We” is stated in a general sense, not personal. Do you really think John walked in darkness (vs. 6) and (even as a Jew) ever stated that he had no sin nor had sinned (vss. 8, 10)?. Get real, Adrian. No one can ever become a Christian by stating such things. In CONTEXT John is not addressing true believers (who could state NONE of the above) but those in the midst of their fellowships who were adhering to Gnostic teachings.

Here, however, is what he writes directly to those who truly had believed:1 John 2:12-14 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."CONTEXT, Adrian, always CONTEXT.

 

[Thing]

I’ll ask again: Who’s “she?” And I’ll say again: I have never said true believers are free from from sinning. But I do believe God’s Word which states that the true believer, now in the risen Christ, has been “freed from sin” having died with Christ “to sin,” once for all.

There’s the difference between you and me, Thing. I don’t distort God’s Word nor do I disbelieve it.

ah … do I understand you.
You think you have an automatic forgiveness now of all sins you will commit in future.
Catholics call that the Sacrament of Confession.
Of course, not being fortune tellers, we cannot tell the future and so cannot say honestly, now, how we are going to feel about sins we may commit in the future. So, more honestly, we might say that the Sacrament is always available and we hope we will always use it.

The ‘she’ is a convention, a polite convention.

 

[bmw8901]

According to the Catechism, “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” Catechism of the Catholic Church 1030 and 1031. This is from the 1994 version of the Catechism.

Furthermore, Wikipedia states: "The Catholic Church gives the name Purgatory to the final purification of all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified.[9] Though purgatory is often pictured as a place rather than a process of purification, this idea is not part of the Church’s doctrine.[10]" The source given in 10 is from John Paul II general audience given on August 4, 1999. You can find that source here: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html

I understand your view and I’m not asking you to accept the doctrine of Purgatory at all. Maybe we should just try to establish a few things so we can understand each other first. I guess I’m more taken aback at your views on grace, justification, faith, merit, sin, etc. So may I ask a couple questions?

After you got saved did you ever sin? (I know you already answered this in another post, but humor me).

If so, does God care about this sin? Why or why not?

If sin doesn’t matter after you are born again why do you have to stop?

In terms of your theology, how do you explain the separation of the Sheep and Goats Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:31-46?

Thanks.

 

[adriancombe]

This is a very silly thing to say. There is no verse free of context. And in context John is not speaking about believers but those who (1) “say” they have fellowship with God and yet walk in darkness (1:6), (2) adhere to a false notion and “say” that they have no sin (1:8) and (3) “say” they have not sinned (1:10).“We” is stated in a general sense, not personal. Do you really think John walked in darkness (vs. 6) and (even as a Jew) ever stated that he had no sin nor had sinned (vss. 8, 10)?. Get real, Adrian. No one can ever become a Christian by stating such things. In CONTEXT John is not addressing true believers (who could state NONE of the above) but those in the midst of their fellowships who were adhering to Gnostic teachings.

The context is important but you cannnot even interpret that correctly if you do not understand the grammar of the original.
You cannot take the ‘they’ from one verse and equate it to the ‘we’ of another verse just because they are in the same context! Furthermore, you totally miss the point of the subjunctive. John is not saying who has done what - he is making conditional statements! Verses 6-10 all start with ‘if’ - even you can see that much. Quit wasting your time (and mine) with straw men! Roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty and do some real exegesis.

 

[bmw8901]

Also to MoonDweller:

You posted many verses, none of which I disagree with. I do believe that Christ’s on the cross provided us with salvation and saved us from all of our sins past, present, and future. I don’t believe that what I believe disagrees with any of the verses you posted. But there are many verses that I don’t understand how you can logically explain given your views.

Two examples that I would like to hear your comments on would be:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Hebrews 10:26-27

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:4-6

Thanks.

 

[paul_c]

Christ paid for these sins at Calvary. We can do nothing to pay for them. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. No cleansing. Confession needs only to be directed to God. We need no sacrament. Man was once separated from God because of sin. Jesus reconciled sinners to God, thereby making a way for us to go straight to our heavenly Father. Although those who are born-again believers in Jesus Christ, still do sin because of our fallen nature, those sins were nailed to the Cross and when we repent of them, God is faithful to forgive. He nowhere requires any purification after death.

so this is interesting. “when we repent of our sins, God is faithful to forgive.” This is what the sacrament of reconciliation is all about for Catholics. How do you execute this repentence in your church? and what happens if you don’t repent? Are your sins still forgiven? If so, what’s the point of repentence? if not, then you must cooperate with god for your salvation, just as the Catholic churchh teaches…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Certainly! As long as we’re in this yet unredeemed body; IOW, till the day we die or be taken up.

I’ve answered this many times in previous posts, Randy. So please don’t ask it again. And the point I’ve made before is that your doctrine of Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief in that it expresses unbelief in the Divinely revealed fact that God dealt with ALL our sins (past prestent & future), having made purification of them through sacrificial blood (Heb. 1:3b). A MAJOR Biblical theme, foreshadowed in the O.T., beginning in Genesis with God rejecting Adam and Eve trying to cover themselves with fig leaves, and the shedding blood in order to clothes them Himself (Gen. 3:21), to the Day of Atonement as prescribed in the Law of Moses for national Israel’s sins. All this prefigured the one FINAL sacrifice of the incarnate Son, Who, by the shedding of His blood would take away sins (Heb. 9-10).

The writer of Hebrews compares the Mosaic sacrificial system to Christ’s, once for all, FINAL sacrifice by which He, once for all, takes away sins:
Heb 10:11 “Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”
That is, sanctified in Him. All true believers are now sanctified in the risen Christ (Himself an Adam) in whom there is NO SIN. This now being the true believer’s eternal identity.

Your doctrine of Purgatory denies all of this. And for this reason it’s a doctrine rooted in unbelief.

I see. We don’t believe. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Or is it that we simply don’t believe the errors you have accepted?

BTW, forgive me for not remembering what you personally believe about any one of a few dozen topics that may be under discussion at any one time in multiple forums and multiple threads. Although you can find my beliefs printed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I have a hard time keeping you, EdOsiecki, Yankee-drifter, myfavoritemartin, RightlyDivide (banned), RickHolland (banned) and the rest of the gang straight. Throw in a few Orthodox, Anglicans, Mormons, JWs, atheists and everyone else who engages me, and you’ll understand why I have to refresh myself on your particular flavor of the gospel from time to time.

Now to your post:

Justification is not a one-time event. It is a process.

Similarly, sanctification is a process that continues until the moment you die and, if necessary, will continue in Purgatory.

Your denial of the need for final purgation results from your unbelief about the true teaching of the scriptures on these things.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ll ask again: Who’s “she?” And I’ll say again: I have never said true believers are free from from sinning. But I do believe God’s Word which states that the true believer, now in the risen Christ, has been “freed from sin” having died with Christ “to sin,” once for all.

There’s the difference between you and me, Thing. I don’t distort God’s Word nor do I disbelieve it.

If I understand you correctly, it would accurate to say that we have died to sin and that we don’t HAVE to sin.

But the plain fact is that we do…up to the moment we die even.

Consequently, we need to be freed from the dross that clings to our souls.

At this point, however, I think we are simply saying the same things to one another over and over fruitlessly.

 

[guanophore]

Where does any kind of concept of punishment come into play? Jesus bore our punishment. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,

Yes, the eternal punishment. However, sometimes He does not spare us the immediate temporal consequences for our sins. I am not sure 'punishment" is the best term for it, as some consequences of our actions are positive. When the actions are sinful,the consequences are negative to ourselves, our relationship with God, to others, and to the world in which we live.

For example, the thief testified on the cross "we suffer the just punishment of our sins’. He recognized and accepted that his crucifixion was deserved. We also notice that Jesus did not spare him this “punishment”. Jesus promised him paradise, but did not take him when He left, as He might. He allowed him to remain and suffer until sunset, and to have his legs broken.

God did not spare Paul his “thorn in the flesh”, either. God used this condition to purify Paul, just as all of our suffering can be used to purify us, even that suffering we bring upon ourselves.

We see in the book of Revelation how God uses suffering to purify the Church.

so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1 Pet 2:24) On the cross Christ willingly took on our sin and bore its penalty. God chastises the believer when he sins, but all the punishment was laid on Christ. We are covered by His blood.

Yes, with regard to eternal punishment. However, purgatory is about temporal punishment/suffering.

The Scriptures teach that there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. You and I can’t pay for it. There’s no other way.

It seems you are not making a distinction between the eternal and the temporal debt. Only those whose eternal debt is paid benefit from the purification of suffering.

Nothing else can satisfy a Holy God but atonement through the blood of Christ. The OT sacrifices were not perfect. The sacrifice of Christ was. Jesus Christ is the perfect once for all sacrifice and we are no longer under the law, but under grace. He freely offers salvation because He paid our sin debt in FULL.

Yes, eternal debt. Remember the parable. “Make peace with your enemy while you are on the road with him.”. If you do not settle your debt, you may be “thrown into prison,and will not get out until you pay the last penny”. This is a reference to temporal debt, not eternal.

If we are held accountable for our confessed sins that God promised not to remember anymore but cleanses us of all unrighteousness, then why did Christ die on the cross for?

This question does not make any sense. Why would one NOT be accountable for their sins? Just because a person is forgiven does not mean there is no reparation to make. If you kid breaks your neighbors window, will you just confess and ask for forgiveness, but not offer to repair the damage?

We make God a liar to say He forgives when we confess and remembers those sins no more, but we still must be punished for it.

Well, I think “punishment” is not the right word. “accountable” seems to say it better. I like “reparation”.

The RC position is that Christ made only partial payment for sins. We must do the rest.

No, this is not correct. Jesus makes complete eternal satisfaction. Sometimes, he also sets aside temporal consequences, but not always.

That Christ merely only opened the door to heaven making it possible for man to merit entrance through a sacramental system. Christ did not give us a system -He gave us HIMSELF.

I don’t think you ever explained what a “sacramental system” is. If so, please give me the post #, so that I can understand what you are trying to say better.

I agree, Christ did not give us a “system” in the sense that you seem to use it here. He gave us means by which we can access and apply His grace.

If you think God does not approve of ritual, I suggest another read of the Torah.

 

[guanophore]

Yankee_drifter continues to knock down the straw men he sets up because he will not listen to and absorb what Catholics have explained to him about Catholic theology.

In this example, Yankee_drifter continues in his misunderstanding that Purgatory is about the forgiveness of sin. He fails to grasp the distinction between the eternal and temporal effects of sin.

He also fails to recognize the fact that Jesus established the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church as the means by which we receive grace from God. Consequently, he reduces the plan of God to a mere “system” that he dismisses as being of human origin.

I guess he has to do this. If he were to accept that what he has been given to believe about Catholicism were not true, he would probably have to return home, which is apparently unthinkable!