purgatory

[guanophore]

Christ paid for these sins at Calvary. We can do nothing to pay for them. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins. No cleansing.

Of course He did! Yet, not everyone’s sins are forgiven, are they? Jesus paid the price for them all, but not all are willing to have their debt set aside by His generosity. For them, there is no cleansing.

Confession needs only to be directed to God. We need no sacrament.

I think you are suffering a misunderstanding of the nature of the sacrament. It IS confession directed only to God!

Man was once separated from God because of sin. Jesus reconciled sinners to God, thereby making a way for us to go straight to our heavenly Father. Although those who are born-again believers in Jesus Christ, still do sin because of our fallen nature, those sins were nailed to the Cross and when we repent of them, God is faithful to forgive.

This is a good explanation of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

He nowhere requires any purification after death.

I am sure it seems that way to you. Some people have never suffered much loss in life, and don’t know how painful it is to be separated from their attachments.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve answered this many times in previous posts, Randy. So please don’t ask it again. And the point I’ve made before is that your doctrine of Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief in that it expresses unbelief in the Divinely revealed fact that God dealt with ALL our sins (past prestent & future), having made purification of them through sacrificial blood (Heb. 1:3b).

It will have to be asked as long as you continue to post these misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine. It is BECAUSE we believe in teh atonement of Christ on the cross, purifying us by His blood, that we have the grace of Purgatory. We know that, to whatever extent we have not yet been conformed to His image when we leave this earth, He will conform us. We know this BECAUSE of our belief in His very precious promises - that when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.
Purgatory is that state in which His purifying sacrifice is applied to our souls.

All this *prefigured* the one FINAL sacrifice of the incarnate Son, Who, by the shedding of His blood would *take away* sins (Heb. 9-10).

It is the effects of those sins that are left, against which we struggle in the flesh, and from which we will be purified so that we are fit to enter heaven, where nothing is unclean.

The writer of Hebrews compares the Mosaic sacrificial system to Christ’s, once for all, FINAL sacrifice by which He, once for all, takes away sins:Heb 10:11

Yes. This is about the eternal payment for sins.

**For by one offering** He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified

."That is, sanctified in Him. All true believers are now sanctified in the risen Christ (Himself an Adam) in whom there is NO SIN. This now being the true believer’s eternal identity.

Indeed. Yet we have much before we come into our divine inheritance. Throughout this life, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. We die daily, that Christ may be formed in us.

Your doctrine of Purgatory denies all of this.

No, Moon. You dont’ appear to understand the Catholic teaching.

On the contrary, it is BECAUSE of all this that purification is possible.

And for this reason it’s a doctrine rooted in unbelief.

I guess it must seem this way to you, since you don’t understand it.

 

[guanophore]

On what do you base this assertion?

Purgatory, like heaven and hell, exist outside the space/time continuum. It is difficult, if not impossible, for human beings to conceptualize our existence outside of temporal space, so we do tend to think of “places”.

I

t’s an amazing thing that Catholics pray for a shorter stint in Purgatory for their loved ones, and thousands, in the past, have paid money to the church for that reason, yet you claim it’s not a place at all.

I agree. The limitations of the human mind are really amazing at times. For example, the notion that the nature of sin has changed “this side of the cross”, and as a result, sin no longer separates us from God.

It is amazing that Catholics are presently suffering terribly for “un-absolved” sins in a non-place for which others pray they might have an early release.

I suppose, were this true, it really would be amazing, but since it is not, it really does not qualify.

On the contrary, only those who have already be absolved of sins are being purified for heaven.

BMW, it's not at all important to "remember" that Purgatory is not a physical place.  What's truly important to *realize* is that the doctrine of Catholic Purgatory has not even a shed of Divine revelation to support it.

Fortunately the One who Purifies us does not live in a shed, but reigns as King in the heavenly places.

 In fact, the doctrine itself militates against what IS Divinely revealed concerning sin, the sinner, and the purification of sin through personal belief in the gospel message of Jesus Christ, God's sin-bearer.

I am sure it seems this way to you, since you don’t understand the doctrine.

The cross of Christ:2 Cor 5:21 He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin {to be} sin (on the cross) on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

It is BECAUSE HE has paid the eternal consequences of our sins that we are enabled to be purified by His fire.

When you talk in terms like “punishment” and “accountability” you’re talking judicial language.

I think punishment, possibly, though I don’t think that parents mean to be legal when they “punish” their children. It is not really the best term for this context. I do not think that “accountable” is necessarily legal, though it can be. When God says that the shepherds appointed over the faithful are “accountable” for their souls, do you think that is a legal reference?

You see, not only is there no Divine support for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, but there’s no Divine support for its partner in crime, the doctrine of “Temporal Punishment.”

One of the things that amazes me about this is how Calvanists derived the criminal justice system.

Why? Because it is Divinely revealed that the sacrifice of Christ put away sin, once for all, by the sacrifice of Himself:

Heb 9:26 **

I am curious how you explain why the effects of sin remain, and why it is that believers are still held accountable, and still suffer temporal punishments, such as the thief on the cross. How do you explain why Jesus did not take him at once?
moondweller;5930431:

Please go back here

and point out to me where I have falsely presented, and lack personal understanding, on the Catholic doctrine on Purgatory and Temporal Punishment.
​

I just posted a couple messages on this.

Of course they, and now you, claim I don’t understand it, but I most certainly do.

Yes, I do claim that. It is not hard, since your posts make it clear that you are very confused.​

 

[moondweller]

According to the Catechism, "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Yes. But this has absolutely no Divine support, unless you can show me where this is taught in Scripture. True Christianity is based on Divine revelation, not man’s imagination.

You’re really not “on the fence” on any of this, are you BMW?

I understand your view and I’m not asking you to accept the doctrine of Purgatory at all. Maybe we should just try to establish a few things so we can understand each other first. I guess I’m more taken aback at your views on grace, justification, faith, merit, sin, etc. So may I ask a couple questions?

After you got saved did you ever sin? (I know you already answered this in another post, but humor me).

If you know I already answered this question then why ask it AGAIN?

If so, does God care about this sin? Why or why not?

God “took care” of all these sins at Calvary. How is it you don’t believe this?

If sin doesn’t matter after you are born again why do you have to stop?

(1) To glorify Christ in my body and present it a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is my spiritual service of worship (Rom. 12:1-2). (2) To live out my life here on earth in accordance with my new, eternal identity now in the risen Christ.Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"This Pauline logic, based on God’s infinite grace toward believers in Christ, may not make much sense to you, but it does to me.

In terms of your theology, how do you explain the separation of the Sheep and Goats Jesus talks about in Matthew 25:31-46?

I wish I could remember, or even locate, the many threads on which I’ve already answered this. Suffice it to say that this event takes place at the end of the age (Matt. 24:3), at the time of Christ’s second advent to this earth. It takes place when He as “King of kings and Lord of lords” finally ascends His glorious throne in Jerusalem fulfilling the words of the angel Gabriel to Mary in Lk. 1:32-33, and all the O.T. prophecies which described this glorious, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. What’s taking place at that time is not a judgment but a separation. A separation of those who are His (“sheep”) from those who are not (“goats”). This separation is based on their identity: “sheep” from “goats.”

These are Gentiles living on the earth at His return. Those identified as His “sheep” are ushered into His earthly Millennial kingdom - as mortals. Those identified as “goats” to await the final judgment of the “dead” which occurs at the end of His earthly, Millennial reign (Rev. 20:7-15).

Matt. 25:31-46 has nothing to do with the church Christ is building through the Holy Spirit, presently calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, while sharing His Father’s throne in heaven. She (the church) returns with Him at His second advent to reign with Him.

Matt. 25:31-46 is not the “last judgment.” It’s not a judgment at all, but a separation of Gentiles living on the earth at that time based on their identity .

It’s late. :yawn: May the Lord open your mind to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:45).

 

[moondweller]

It will have to be asked as long as you continue to post these misunderstandings of Catholic doctrine. It is BECAUSE we believe in teh atonement of Christ on the cross, purifying us by His blood, that we have the grace of Purgatory.

This statement of yours is conspicuously contradictory.

We know that, to whatever extent we have not yet been conformed to His image when we leave this earth, He will conform us.

However, it’s Divinely revealed that the true believer is already identified in the risen Christ.

We know this BECAUSE of our belief in His very precious promises - that when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.

This has to do with the true believer’s future glorification (see Phil. 3:20-21).

Purgatory is that state in which His purifying sacrifice is applied to our souls.

Then you are presently in an unsaved state. This statement of yours confirms what I’ve often said, that Catholicism has no true concept of “saved.”

 

[bmw8901]

Yes. But this has absolutely no Divine support, unless you can show me where this is taught in Scripture. True Christianity is based on Divine revelation, not man’s imagination.

You’re really not “on the fence” on any of this, are you BMW?If you know I already answered this question then why ask it AGAIN?God “took care” of all these sins at Calvary. How is it you don’t believe this?(1) To glorify Christ in my body and present it a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is my spiritual service of worship (Rom. 12:1-2). (2) To live out my life here on earth in accordance with my new, eternal identity now in the risen Christ.Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"This Pauline logic, based on God’s infinite grace toward believers in Christ, may not make much sense to you, but it does to me.I wish I could remember, or even locate, the many threads on which I’ve already answered this. Suffice it to say that this event takes place at the end of the age (Matt. 24:3), at the time of Christ’s second advent to this earth. It takes place when He as “King of kings and Lord of lords” finally ascends His glorious throne in Jerusalem fulfilling the words of the angel Gabriel to Mary in Lk. 1:32-33, and all the O.T. prophecies which described this glorious, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. What’s taking place at that time is not a judgment but a separation. A separation of those who are His (“sheep”) from those who are not (“goats”). This separation is based on their identity: “sheep” from “goats.”

These are Gentiles living on the earth at His return. Those identified as His “sheep” are ushered into His earthly Millennial kingdom - as mortals. Those identified as “goats” to await the final judgment of the “dead” which occurs at the end of His earthly, Millennial reign (Rev. 20:7-15).

Matt. 25:31-46 has nothing to do with the church Christ is building through the Holy Spirit, presently calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles, while sharing His Father’s throne in heaven. She (the church) returns with Him at His second advent to reign with Him.

Matt. 25:31-46 is not the “last judgment.” It’s not a judgment at all, but a separation of Gentiles living on the earth at that time based on their identity .

It’s late. :yawn: May the Lord open your mind to understand the Scriptures (Lk. 24:45).

I am continually surprised how you misunderstand and misrepresent other people’s arguments and views. I stated that: "Currently, I’m on the fence. There are parts of Catholic theology I agree with and parts I disagree with. The same is true for Protestantism. I can see some merit in some of its theology and disagree with other parts. I’m still looking for the “truth.” I never said I was on the fence about Purgatory. You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces from people’s posts and reply to what you think you have read. Perhaps you should carefully read each post a few times and take a minute to think about what was written. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here; that your just jumping ahead without fully understanding what is being discussed. I know you SAY that you understand what we believe but you continually mis-represent.

I also stated that I believe that Jesus did take care of ALL of our sins at Calvary in at least two post. Yet here again you tell me: ““took care” of all these sins at Calvary. How is it you don’t believe this?(1)” How is it that you completely misunderstand or misrepresent me and others on this board?

I also find it ironic the theological hoops you jump through to discuss the Separation of the Sheep and the Goats. The whole idea of different judgments is ludicrous and totally reads something into the text that is not there. This is the very thing you accuse Catholics of doing with the doctrine of Purgatory. You don’t have to defend you view of any eschatology or judgment as this thread is about the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. I am merely using this illustration as an analogy.

You end with this verse: “May the Lord open your mind to understand the Scriptures.” But you don’t mean that. You really mean, may the Lord open your mind to understand my view of the Scriptures. Again, none of us are asking you to accept what we teach or believe it. But this is a Catholic message board. If you come here and would like to debate I think you should at least be able to articulate what we ACTUALLY believe and not what you say we believe. You have not done this yet, but you will say you have.

You also mentioned Pauline theology. I find this interesting as it was Paul and the Gospels that started me questioning my Evangelical beliefs. A few years ago I wrote to my Pastor consider that Paul and the Gospels seemed really different. Paul is mainly about Grace through faith, but Jesus was always about action and doing something. Jesus didn’t sound like Paul. That dichotomy troubled me. So did other things like the Book of James. I got a nice response from that pastor and was content for a while. But when I started investigating more, I found that Paul and Christ messages were very easily reconciled in Catholic theology but much more difficult to reconcile in Protestant theology. Please don’t comment on this paragraph though. This is mainly a personal story to help you understand where I am coming from, and because of such, it provides too mainly “easy” targets.

Thanks

 

[yankee_drifter]

Thank you for your reply. I am not talking about our original conversion experience whether that be having a Born Again experience in the Evangelical churches or Baptism, Confession, and Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

I asking you that after you got saved do you still sin? ** Does God still not hold you accountable for this sin?** I believe He does, I think Hebrews 10:26 demonstrates this: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.” That would seem to indicate that AFTER you get saved your sins still matter and you are still held accountable for them. I don’t think this cheapens Christ at all.
More directly to your post, do you think that once a person is saved, God will never punish them again? Again, I’m not talking in terms of Heaven and Hell punishment either.

God does not “punish” those who belong to Him, He chastises, and there’s a big difference. God chastises those whom He loves to help us be more like Christ which prepares us for heaven. I think we punish ourselves when we don’t forgive ourselves for those sins we committed and repented for. Since God promised not to remember anymore our old repented sins, then we need to let them go after we’ve confessed and forgive ourselves. Our sins were nailed to the Cross. This is how we know a true Christian, by his fruits. Those who deliberately hang onto their sins, or feel no remorse, do not belong to Christ. However, we can never clean ourselves up enough to fully satisfy God. Isaiah 64:6 says all our righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. God has ordained that man’s cleansing from sin should be made with blood- the blood of Christ.(Heb. 9:22)

Everybody sins, including Christians. We will continue to do so until we die. When the born-again Christian, who has now been washed in the blood of Christ, sins, the Holy Spirit who indwells every born-again believer, convicts us of that sin. There’s no peace in our conscience until we repent. Why? Because sin affects our relationship with God and can keep Him from answering our prayers. God cannot just look the other way or condone sin in our lives. After we repent, it restores our daily walk with God. In a Christian’s whole lifetime, God is transforming him into Christ-likeness. Whenever sins get in our way, we can go directly to God for help in resisting these temptations.

You mentioned Heb 10:26. But that talks about those who deliberately choose to sin. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Savior; resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and renounce the Gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. The Christian who has sorrow for committing sins will not be shut out from mercy, or be refused the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out. (Heb 10:32-39)

The apostle Paul said where sin abounds, more grace abounds. God keeps pouring out His grace. This is not a license to sin, but the love of God bestowed upon those who love Him.

As for becoming a worse sinner after getting saved, satan tempts more often the newly converted Christian than the unsaved because the new Christian is a greater threat. This is why we need the support of other Christians and a Bible-believing church, because “baby” Christians are not yet well grounded in the faith.

You said you were “born-again” at age 17, were you aware that you were a lost sinner who needed Jesus Christ?

 

[JustaServant]

There are several verses in the bible that speak of falling away.
They may have even tested themselves as in 2Cor 3:15 and 1John and found themselves to be in Christ. Then one day, they find themselves to be reprobates which Paul says is possible. Its an ongoing test, not just a one-time thing. If you commit a grave sin against God knowingly, with full consent of the will and intellect, you have failed the test and have become a reprobate. This was completely of your own doing to turn from God. Grace allows us to make mistakes (God will not act as a tyrant), but there is such a thing as deadly sin (1John 5:16-17). Deadly sin refers to spiritual death.

If you are forever in Christ with no possibility of falling away, then there is no need to test yourself. If you test yourself and fail, Paul implies that you are no longer in Christ. If you are no longer in Christ how can you say you have ‘security’?

 

[PRmerger]

Yes. But this has absolutely no Divine support, unless you can show me where this is taught in Scripture. True Christianity is based on Divine revelation, not man’s imagination.

Actually, moon, true Christianity is based on the Divine Word, the Word of God Made Flesh. We not a people of The Book (like Muslims), but are a people of the Word–Jesus Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Hey, Moondweller!

Way back when, you posted a ludicrous and bizarre claim:

Originally posted by moondweller: It’s documented history that the majority of the RC priests never read the Scriptures but were merely trained in the traditions of the RCC.

I asked for some documentation for your claim, but you never provided it…and the thread is now closed.

Although it’s off topic, I’d like a brief response from you. All that’s required from you would be several resources, listed in one post. If more discussion is needed, I’d be happy to start another thread on this, but let’s see if you can answer it and end the discussion with some good documentation.

 

[ncgolf]

We will continue to do so until we die. When the born-again Christian, who has now been washed in the blood of Christ, sins, the Holy Spirit who indwells every born-again believer, convicts us of that sin.

It is the continuation of sin … this persistance that purgatory addresses … especially those habits you cannot seem to break.

“we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another” (Romans 12:5). Does this relationship change after death? Paul never implies that it does so we are members even with those that have died. If prayers are offered for the dead … who can be affected? Those in heaven …no, for they are perfected and no longer in need, those in hell … no … or is there the state where the supplication can be applied as God pleases. It is this state which we call Purgatory. Does not Paul ask us “bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2). Paul does not imply those burdens are only for the living.

I imagine for any evangelical/Reformed theology prayers for the dead have no purpose or effect. Do you offer supplication for the deceased? If you don’t I understand why but if you do how do you these working and for whom?

 

[paul_c]

God does not “punish” those who belong to Him, He chastises, and there’s a big difference. God chastises those whom He loves to help us be more like Christ which prepares us for heaven. I think we punish ourselves when we don’t forgive ourselves for those sins we committed and repented for. Since God promised not to remember anymore our old repented sins, then we need to let them go after we’ve confessed and forgive ourselves. Our sins were nailed to the Cross. This is how we know a true Christian, by his fruits. Those who deliberately hang onto their sins, or feel no remorse, do not belong to Christ. However, we can never clean ourselves up enough to fully satisfy God. Isaiah 64:6 says all our righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. God has ordained that man’s cleansing from sin should be made with blood- the blood of Christ.(Heb. 9:22)

You see, here is the rub. You say that those you hang on to their sins and feel no remorse, do not belong to Christ. You also say you know a true Christian by his fruits (fruits are the results of what he does, can we agree on that?) . This is exactly what Catholics teach. You must do good works and reconcile your sins to be saved. This means YOU must cooperate with Christ and do his will. It does not fall all on Jesus here. YOU are saying that you have responsibilities too. this is not to say that Jesus can not save you if he chose to do so, he just chooses to have us come to him willingly.

Everybody sins, including Christians. We will continue to do so until we die. When the born-again Christian, who has now been washed in the blood of Christ, sins, the Holy Spirit who indwells every born-again believer, convicts us of that sin. There’s no peace in our conscience until we repent. Why? Because sin affects our relationship with God and can keep Him from answering our prayers. God cannot just look the other way or condone sin in our lives. After we repent, it restores our daily walk with God. In a Christian’s whole lifetime, God is transforming him into Christ-likeness. Whenever sins get in our way, we can go directly to God for help in resisting these temptations.

This is very Catholic with the exception that we understand that God has set up a specific sacrament of reconciliation for man to regain the graces we lose through sin.

You mentioned Heb 10:26. But that talks about those who deliberately choose to sin. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Savior; resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and renounce the Gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. The Christian who has sorrow for committing sins will not be shut out from mercy, or be refused the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out. (Heb 10:32-39) .

The apostle Paul said where sin abounds, more grace abounds. God keeps pouring out His grace. This is not a license to sin, but the love of God bestowed upon those who love Him.

So very true. God loves a repetent sinner. Oh and by the way, all sin, by definition is deliberate. Intent matters. If you do not know you are sinning, it would be classified as a mistake.

 

[bmw8901]

I’m not sure if this thread is still open or closed. I’ll wait for a moderator to make the call. If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to send me a private message. I’d welcome any comments.

Thanks

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
In terms of your theology, how do you explain the separation of the Sheep and Goats Jesus talks about in Matthew 25:31-46?

Moondweller, you are right, you have commented on this reading before and we’ve explained the correct context to you before as well. Let’s revisit that for a minute:
Here is the passage in question for easy reference:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You say" What’s taking place at that time is not a judgment but a separation", but what is the difference? As you can see clearly in verse 46, the result is a placement in heaven or hell. What you call it is unimportant. What is important is that the result is their eternal placement in heaven or hell.

You further say " This separation is based on their identity: “sheep” from “goats.” " Well, the text very clearly states that that separation was defined by how they treated the least of Jesus’ brothers, those who were judged sheep and given eternal life were the ones who treated their neighbors with mercy and love. while those condemned as goats failed to show love and mercy to others.

Finally, you say " These are Gentiles living on the earth at His return. Those identified as His “sheep” are ushered into His earthly Millennial kingdom - as mortals. Those identified as “goats” to await the final judgment of the “dead” which occurs at the end of His earthly, Millennial reign (Rev. 20:7-15). " Well the text says none of this. This is pure extrapolation on your part. He says speaking to the goats in line 46: “And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life”. No mention of the millennial kingdom (which by the way, we are in right now). No mention of another judgement. In fact, he judges them on the spot and sends them to heaven or hell based on their ACTIONS in life.

 

[bmw8901]

God does not “punish” those who belong to Him, He chastises, and there’s a big difference. God chastises those whom He loves to help us be more like Christ which prepares us for heaven. I think we punish ourselves when we don’t forgive ourselves for those sins we committed and repented for. Since God promised not to remember anymore our old repented sins, then we need to let them go after we’ve confessed and forgive ourselves. Our sins were nailed to the Cross. This is how we know a true Christian, by his fruits. Those who deliberately hang onto their sins, or feel no remorse, do not belong to Christ. However, we can never clean ourselves up enough to fully satisfy God. Isaiah 64:6 says all our righteous acts are like filthy rags before God. God has ordained that man’s cleansing from sin should be made with - the of Christ.(Heb. 9:22)

Everybody sins, including Christians. We will continue to do so until we die. When the born-again Christian, who has now been washed in the of Christ, sins, the Holy Spirit who indwells every born-again believer, convicts us of that sin. There’s no peace in our conscience until we repent. Why? Because sin affects our relationship with God and can keep Him from answering our prayers. God cannot just look the other way or condone sin in our lives. After we repent, it restores our daily walk with God. In a Christian’s whole lifetime, God is transforming him into Christ-likeness. Whenever sins get in our way, we can go directly to God for help in resisting these temptations.

You mentioned Heb 10:26. But that talks about those who deliberately choose to sin. The sin here mentioned is a total and final falling away, when men, with a full and fixed will and resolution, despise and reject Christ, the only Savior; resist the Spirit, the only Sanctifier; and renounce the Gospel, the only way of salvation, and the words of eternal life. The Christian who has sorrow for committing sins will not be shut out from mercy, or be refused the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice, who are willing to accept these blessings. Him that cometh unto Christ, he will in no wise cast out. (Heb 10:32-39)

The apostle Paul said where sin abounds, more grace abounds. God keeps pouring out His grace. This is not a license to sin, but the love of God bestowed upon those who love Him.

As for becoming a worse sinner after getting saved, satan tempts more often the newly converted Christian than the unsaved because the new Christian is a greater threat. This is why we need the support of other Christians and a Bible-believing church, because “baby” Christians are not yet well grounded in the faith.

You said you were “born-again” at age 17, were you aware that you were a lost sinner who needed Jesus Christ?

Thank you so much for addressing my post in a direct, open, and honest way. I really appreciate it.

I’ll answer your question regarding my born again experience with a private message to you. I don’t want to derail the thread and it doesn’t deal with the topic of purgatory.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You said you were “born-again” at age 17, were you aware that you were a lost sinner who needed Jesus Christ?

Here we go…

The ex-Catholic Evangelical now seeks to evaluate whether bmw8901 was REALLY saved according to his new-found theological system or whether bmw8901 still needs to get right with God.

I’m telling you…unless these folks see you walk down the aisle in their own churches and say the sinner’s prayer led by their own Pastor, Brother Billy Bob, your status as a true Christian is “maybe” at best.

Then they rant about the Catholic Church being “arrogant” and “exclusive” when in fact there is no salvation outside their own little church.

 

[TheWay]

bmw, I was born and raised Protestant. I recently converted to Catholicism for the reasons you have cited. I experienced firsthand the cognitive dissonance in Evangelical theology. In Catholic doctrine I found harmony in the Bible.

We know from the Bible that there will be no sin in Heaven, and Protestants and Catholics agree that Christians sin after having been justified. The only logical conclusion is that God effects a change, a purification, in us that enables us to enter Heaven.

I believe that the reason that Evangelical Protestants cannot admit to the existence of Purgatory is because if they did they would in effect be admitting that sanctification plays a role in our entering into the eternal union in Heaven, i.e., salvation. The fundamental tenets of Evangelical theology are that justification (becoming saved) and sanctification (becoming holy) are separate and distinct, and that sanctification does not play a role in salvation. But the Bible is full of examples to the contrary. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that salvation is through sanctification and belief.

 

[paul_c]

bmw, I was born and raised Protestant. I recently converted to Catholicism for the reasons you have cited. I experienced firsthand the cognitive dissonance in Evangelical theology. In Catholic doctrine I found harmony in the Bible.

We know from the Bible that there will be no sin in Heaven, and Protestants and Catholics agree that Christians sin after having been justified. The only logical conclusion is that God effects a change, a purification, in us that enables us to enter Heaven.

I believe that the reason that Evangelical Protestants cannot admit to the existence of Purgatory is because if they did they would in effect be admitting that sanctification plays a role in our entering into the eternal union in Heaven, i.e., salvation. The fundamental tenets of Evangelical theology are that justification (becoming saved) and sanctification (becoming holy) are separate and distinct, and that sanctification does not play a role in salvation. But the Bible is full of examples to the contrary. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that salvation is through sanctification and belief.

well said

 

[JustaServant]

Here we go…

The ex-Catholic Evangelical now seeks to evaluate whether bmw8901 was REALLY saved according to his new-found theological system or whether bmw8901 still needs to get right with God.

I’m telling you…unless these folks see you walk down the aisle in their own churches and say the sinner’s prayer led by their own Pastor, Brother Billy Bob, your status as a true Christian is “maybe” at best.

Then they rant about the Catholic Church being “arrogant” and “exclusive” when in fact there is no salvation outside their own little church.

You hit that one out of the park.

 

[bmw8901]

bmw, I was born and raised Protestant. I recently converted to Catholicism for the reasons you have cited. I experienced firsthand the cognitive dissonance in Evangelical theology. In Catholic doctrine I found harmony in the Bible.

We know from the Bible that there will be no sin in Heaven, and Protestants and Catholics agree that Christians sin after having been justified. The only logical conclusion is that God effects a change, a purification, in us that enables us to enter Heaven.

I believe that the reason that Evangelical Protestants cannot admit to the existence of Purgatory is because if they did they would in effect be admitting that sanctification plays a role in our entering into the eternal union in Heaven, i.e., salvation. The fundamental tenets of Evangelical theology are that justification (becoming saved) and sanctification (becoming holy) are separate and distinct, and that sanctification does not play a role in salvation. But the Bible is full of examples to the contrary. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that salvation is through sanctification and belief.

Thank you for your kind words. I’ll send you a private message regarding my story.