purgatory

[TheWay]

moondweller; I don’t know Greek; I have never studied it, so I am by no means an expert. I looked up Hebrews 10:14 in the lexicon / concordance at blueletterbible.org. The Greek word (as best I can represent in English letters) “hagiazo,” for “those who are sanctified,” is present tense, which suggests an on-going process of being made holy through the grace made available to us, and active in us, through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

I infer from your post that you believe that saved Christians will be perfectly sanctified in their redeemed bodies in Heaven. I was a Protestant for most of my life and I have read some Protestant theologians. I have never read about or heard of sanctification in terms of “positional” or “experiential.”. Salvation, however, is just another way of describing the means of entering Heaven after death. If no unclean thing can enter Heaven, if we will not sin in Heaven, the conclusion is that we will be perfectly sanctified in Heaven, and I think you agree. “The day will come when the believer’s position will be his eternal condition,” you wrote. How then do you not believe in a purification after death that enables us to enter Heaven? There is a before and after state of existence, i.e., a state at death where “experiential” sanctification does not match “positional” sanctification, and a state in Heaven where “the believer’s position will be his eternal condition,” you wrote. I’d like your thoughts.

 

[moondweller]

Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

Scripture certainly reveals to us that all sins are forgiven by God, our debt paid in full, and the believer is cleansed of all unrighteousness by the blood of Christ. So, could you tell me:

(1) Where Scripture talks about the “effects” of sin having to be removed?

(2) Just exactly what these “effects” are? Scripture please, not your opinion.

(3) How pain and suffering inflicted by the fires of purgatory remove these so-called “effects?”

(4) Why it doesn’t require “purifying fires” to remove the “effects” of sin in this present life?

 

[Thing]

Scripture certainly reveals to us that all sins are forgiven by God, our debt paid in full, and the believer is cleansed of all unrighteousness by the blood of Christ. So, could you tell me:

(1) Where Scripture talks about the “effects” of sin having to be removed?

The dog returns to its vomit. The effects of sin is concupiscence. Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.

(2) Just exactly what these “effects” are? Scripture please, not your opinion.

The dog returns to its vomit.

(3) How pain and suffering inflicted by the fires of purgatory remove these so-called “effects?”

The effects must be removed if sin is to remain forever outside heaven. Fire is usually an analogy which well describes the reality of the suffering due to its loss.

(4) Why it doesn’t require “purifying fires” to remove the “effects” of sin in this present life?

It does. Suffer the little children to come unto Me.
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[James_N]

moondweller; I don’t know Greek; I have never studied it, so I am by no means an expert. I looked up Hebrews 10:14 in the lexicon / concordance at blueletterbible.org. The Greek word (as best I can represent in English letters) “hagiazo,” for “those who are sanctified,” is present tense, which suggests an on-going process of being made holy through the grace made available to us, and active in us, through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

I infer from your post that you believe that saved Christians will be perfectly sanctified in their redeemed bodies in Heaven. I was a Protestant for most of my life and I have read some Protestant theologians. I have never read about or heard of sanctification in terms of “positional” or “experiential.”. Salvation, however, is just another way of describing the means of entering Heaven after death. If no unclean thing can enter Heaven, if we will not sin in Heaven, the conclusion is that we will be perfectly sanctified in Heaven, and I think you agree. “The day will come when the believer’s position will be his eternal condition,” you wrote. How then do you not believe in a purification after death that enables us to enter Heaven? There is a before and after state of existence, i.e., a state at death where “experiential” sanctification does not match “positional” sanctification, and a state in Heaven where “the believer’s position will be his eternal condition,” you wrote. I’d like your thoughts.

I have a question regarding this. I have two beliefs regarding it, and if either is in error, let me know.

1. It is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life.
2. Catholics believe that not all people go to purgatory.

So if one cannot be fully sanctified in life and needs to be in purgatory to prepare for heaven (both ideas I can get behind), how can it be that some avoid purgatory? The only answer I can see is that there is some sanctification that occurs in the act of death itself, and that this is sufficient for certain folks (namely, those who avoid purgatory).

I’m not trying to derail the thread or anything, just wondering about this.

 

[rinnie]

The dog returns to its vomit. The effects of sin is concupiscence. Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.

The dog returns to its vomit.

The effects must be removed if sin is to remain forever outside heaven. Fire is usually an analogy which well describes the reality of the suffering due to its loss.

It does. Suffer the little children to come unto Me.
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Exactly you pay in this world or the next. Suffering is always the cause of sin. Rather it is your sin or the sin of anothers. No one can get away from suffering in this world. That is why we as Catholic would rather suffer here and not have to go to purgatory.

Which is kind of a fine line here, because Confession and Purgatory do really mean the same thing. If you confess in this world and are forgiven you are forgiven in the next also. Just like Jesus said. But I do not know how to not tie them together. If you repent and confess in this world you can save yourslef from doing it in the next. But then its de-railing the thread:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

I have a question regarding this. I have two beliefs regarding it, and if either is in error, let me know.

1. It is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life.
2. Catholics believe that not all people go to purgatory.

So if one cannot be fully sanctified in life and needs to be in purgatory to prepare for heaven (both ideas I can get behind), how can it be that some avoid purgatory? The only answer I can see is that there is some sanctification that occurs in the act of death itself, and that this is sufficient for certain folks (namely, those who avoid purgatory).

I’m not trying to derail the thread or anything, just wondering about this.

Boy talk about 2 minds thinking alike. We must have been writing at the same time. Please read what I wrote.

 

[paul_c]

I have a question regarding this. I have two beliefs regarding it, and if either is in error, let me know.

1. It is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life.
2. Catholics believe that not all people go to purgatory.

So if one cannot be fully sanctified in life and needs to be in purgatory to prepare for heaven (both ideas I can get behind), how can it be that some avoid purgatory? The only answer I can see is that there is some sanctification that occurs in the act of death itself, and that this is sufficient for certain folks (namely, those who avoid purgatory).

I’m not trying to derail the thread or anything, just wondering about this.

I don’t think its a heresy to believe that people can become fully sanctified in this life. There were some very holy saints in Catholic history that we believe went directly to heaven, although no one can be sure.

 

[TheWay]

James, on what basis do you arrive at belief number one (that it is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life)? This would be news to me but I’m a new Catholic who is learning every day. Perhaps you or others on this forum have something to teach me on this point? It seems to me that to not be fully sanctified at death would require purification to enter Heaven.

 

[Thing]

I have a question regarding this. I have two beliefs regarding it, and if either is in error, let me know.

1. It is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life.
2. Catholics believe that not all people go to purgatory.

So if one cannot be fully sanctified in life and needs to be in purgatory to prepare for heaven (both ideas I can get behind), how can it be that some avoid purgatory? The only answer I can see is that there is some sanctification that occurs in the act of death itself, and that this is sufficient for certain folks (namely, those who avoid purgatory).

I’m not trying to derail the thread or anything, just wondering about this.

The early Christian Martyrs are believed to have done both as they suffered death.

 

[James_N]

James, on what basis do you arrive at belief number one (that it is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life)? This would be news to me but I’m a new Catholic who is learning every day. Perhaps you or others on this forum have something to teach me on this point? It seems to me that to not be fully sanctified at death would require purification to enter Heaven.

I’m a non-Catholic who’s learning everyday, so I could be wrong too. It’s just something that most of my Christian friends who know more than me have said (that it’s heresy to believe one can be fully sanctified before death). I think it is because we still tend to sin, even after receiving the grace of God. If we were completely sanctified, that tendency would no longer be there, correct? However, even if this is true, I still don’t think it would be inconsistent with believing that the last bit of sanctification occurs at death.

 

[ncgolf]

I’m a non-Catholic who’s learning everyday, so I could be wrong too. It’s just something that most of my Christian friends who know more than me have said (that it’s heresy to believe one can be fully sanctified before death). I think it is because we still tend to sin, even after receiving the grace of God. If we were completely sanctified, that tendency would no longer be there, correct? However, even if this is true, I still don’t think it would be inconsistent with believing that the last bit of sanctification occurs at death.

What do you think this last bit of sanctifaction is… what do you God does to complete one’s sanctification if it was not completed during earthly life?

Another question is do you think it’s just before, exactly at the moment of death or right after or does it even matter when?

 

[James_N]

What do you think this last bit of sanctifaction is… what do you God does to complete one’s sanctification if it was not completed during earthly life?

Another question is do you think it’s just before, exactly at the moment of death or right after or does it even matter when?

This last bit of sanctification makes us pure and holy (removing entirely our inclination to sin) so as to enter the kingdom of heaven. If it occurs right after death, it would be done in the intermediate state. This is theologically sound. It being done right at the moment of death makes sense (God purifies us through our trials. Is death not a trial?). This also works, I think. Not so sure about right before.

 

[moondweller]

TheWay:

moondweller; I don’t know Greek; I have never studied it, so I am by no means an expert. I looked up Hebrews 10:14 in the lexicon / concordance at blueletterbible.org. The Greek word (as best I can represent in English letters) “hagiazo,” for “those who are sanctified,” is present tense, which suggests an on-going process of being made holy through the grace made available to us, and active in us, through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

You interpreted the verse by reading your doctrine into it."For by one sacrifice He has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified."The writer here is not at all communicating a “process” of “being made holy” but that by ONE SACRIFICE (which is outside ourselves and historic) He (God) has perfected (teteleiôken) in perpetuity (now and forever), the sanctified (tous agiazomenous). It states nothing about grace being made available to us for this purpose, but that “by one sacrifice” (historic) He Himself has perfected the sanctified (the sons He brings to glory).

Just above that verse the writer states:Heb 2:10 "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.It was God who considered it fitting to bring sons TO GLORY. Therefore the Son had to go where they were (the incarnation); (1) to become one with them as to their guilt, which He must Himself bear (1 Pet. 2:24), and (2) become sin on their behalf (2 Cor. 5:21).

So, bringing many sons to glory involved suffering (sacrificial) for the One through Whom the sons (“the sanctified”) would enter glory. And suffering of the most terrible kind: to be forsaken of God - made a curse for us. Nowhere in Scripture is it ever stated that the sons themselves, sanctified and perfected for glory “by one Sacrifice,” enter glory by their own sufferings. And for this reason you can not, will not, find the doctrine of Catholic purgatory in the Scriptures. That doctrine is a total contradiction to Christ’s work on the cross. It’s Divinely revealed that what was “fitting for Him” in bringing many sons to glory is that this would be accomplished, “in toto,” through the suffering of His obedient Servant - not the sanctified sons whom He would perfect for glory.

The doctrine of purgatory denies this glorious revelation revealing the plan of God in bringing many sons to glory through that “one sacrifice” of the Author of their salvation.

I was a Protestant for most of my life and I have read some Protestant theologians. I have never read about or heard of sanctification in terms of “positional” or “experiential.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Systematic Theology covers this extensively, as do some other theologians. If you would like I can PM you on this. But since we’ve already received a warning regarding staying on topic it’s best I post nothing here on the subject.

 

[Carlan]

I have a question regarding this. I have two beliefs regarding it, and if either is in error, let me know.

1. It is heresy to believe that one can become fully sanctified in this life.
2. Catholics believe that not all people go to purgatory.

So if one cannot be fully sanctified in life and needs to be in purgatory to prepare for heaven (both ideas I can get behind), how can it be that some avoid purgatory? The only answer I can see is that there is some sanctification that occurs in the act of death itself, and that this is sufficient for certain folks (namely, those who avoid purgatory).

I’m not trying to derail the thread or anything, just wondering about this.

James may I offer this teaching I rec’d many years back.

Sin has a double consequence. Everysin, grave(,mortal) sin or even venial sin entails an unhealthy attatchment to us which must be purified. Yes, we have been forgiven when we repent of our sin and are restored to communion with God, but temporal punishment remains, and we must strive to accept that temporal punishment as a grace to do good and’put off the “old man” completely and 'put on the “new man”.
This is how we come to achieve holiness.

This unhealthy attachment to sin is either **purified in this life or after death **in the state called Purgatory.It will take place after the 1st judgement.

This purification frees one from what is called Temporal punishment of sin. these two punishment must not be concieved of as any kind of vengiance inflicked by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.

Again, temporal punishment due to sin, whose guilt has already been paid for by Jesus, Catholics believe is a grace from God to help us to become better Christians by purification so as to achieve the holiness needed to enter into the joy of heaven.

Beatitude: Happy the pure in heart ,
They shall see God.
Carlan

 

[TheWay]

moondweller, the Greek word for “sanctified” in Hebrews 10:14 is in the present tense, indicating an event happening in real time, and not a past event. NKJV: “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.”. Who is being sanctified in the present tense? Christians who have received the grace of justification. How are these individuals sanctified? Through the grace of God made available to us through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. How did our Savior make this grace available to us? Through his past completed act on Calvary. What exactly am I reading into Hebrews 10:14 that isn’t there? But I digress.

You have already stated that you believe in a positional sanctification that will become your actuality in Heaven. I do not need to convince you that sanctification is part of the salvation process, that is to say, that you will need to be perfectly holy to enter Heaven. You said, “The day will come when the believer’s position will be his eternal condition.” God therefore must effect a change after death to make your positional sanctification your actuality. How is this different than a purification that enables you to enter Heaven?

 

[paul_c]

You interpreted the verse by reading your doctrine into it."For by one sacrifice He has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified."The writer here is not at all communicating a “process” of “being made holy” but that by ONE SACRIFICE (which is outside ourselves and historic) He (God) has perfected (teteleiôken) in perpetuity (now and forever), the sanctified (tous agiazomenous). It states nothing about grace being made available to us for this purpose, but that “by one sacrifice” (historic) He Himself has perfected the sanctified (the sons He brings to glory).

Just above that verse the writer states:Heb 2:10 "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.It was God who considered it fitting to bring sons TO GLORY. Therefore the Son had to go where they were (the incarnation); (1) to become one with them as to their guilt, which He must Himself bear (1 Pet. 2:24), and (2) become sin on their behalf (2 Cor. 5:21).

So, bringing many sons to glory involved suffering (sacrificial) for the One through Whom the sons (“the sanctified”) would enter glory. And suffering of the most terrible kind: to be forsaken of God - made a curse for us. Nowhere in Scripture is it ever stated that the sons themselves, sanctified and perfected for glory “by one Sacrifice,” enter glory by their own sufferings. And for this reason you can not, will not, find the doctrine of Catholic purgatory in the Scriptures. That doctrine is a total contradiction to Christ’s work on the cross. It’s Divinely revealed that what was “fitting for Him” in bringing many sons to glory is that this would be accomplished, “in toto,” through the suffering of His obedient Servant - not the sanctified sons whom He would perfect for glory.

The doctrine of purgatory denies this glorious revelation revealing the plan of God in bringing many sons to glory through that “one sacrifice” of the Author of their salvation.Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Systematic Theology covers this extensively, as do some other theologians. If you would like I can PM you on this. But since we’ve already received a warning regarding staying on topic it’s best I post nothing here on the subject.

Your interpretation of Hebrews is not born out by the rest of the chapter In fact, read the rest of Hebrews 10 to see if you still believe that your are made holy in perpetuity by Jesus sacrifice, no mater what we do:

26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins
27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?
30 We know the one who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay,” and again: “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember the days past when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a great contest of suffering.
33 At times you were publicly exposed to abuse and affliction; at other times you associated yourselves with those so treated.
34 You even joined in the sufferings of those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you had a better and lasting possession.
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence; it will have great recompense.
36 You need endurance to do the will of God and receive what he has promised.
37 “For, after just a brief moment, he who is to come shall come; he shall not delay.
38 But my just one shall live by faith, and if he draws back I take no pleasure in him.”
39 We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life.

you see, you need to do good works as well as to have faith to get to Heaven and your salvation is not assured unless you persevere to the end. this is clearly stated in the above text that I highlighted. And with that, your argument against purgatory, that it is not necessary becsause future sins are forgiven, evaporates.

 

[ncgolf]

This last bit of sanctification makes us pure and holy (removing entirely our inclination to sin) so as to enter the kingdom of heaven. If it occurs right after death, it would be done in the intermediate state.

You have described the state of purgatory, a state between earth and heaven so that nothing unclean may enter. The length of this state for each is unknown.

CS Lewis wrote this in “Letters to Malcom” …
"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

“I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘with submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—‘Even so, sir.’”

This is theologically sound. It being done right at the moment of death makes sense (God purifies us through our trials. Is death not a trial?). This also works, I think. Not so sure about right before.

I don’t know if death is a trial … for Christians death of the earthly life is birth into the new but life is a trial, a series of events where, by grace and faith we either master our earthly desires or not. If we are not pure at the end of our earthly lives we must be before beginning the next.

 

[PRmerger]

This last bit of sanctification makes us pure and holy (removing entirely our inclination to sin) so as to enter the kingdom of heaven. If it occurs right after death, it would be done in the intermediate state. This is theologically sound. It being done right at the moment of death makes sense (God purifies us through our trials. Is death not a trial?). This also works, I think. Not so sure about right before.

Well, then, James, you believe in purification (i.e. purgatory) that is required before seeing God face to face. What’s so objectionable about the word purgatory, except that the Catholic Church teaches it?

 

[James_N]

Well, then, James, you believe in purification (i.e. purgatory) that is required before seeing God face to face. What’s so objectionable about the word purgatory, except that the Catholic Church teaches it?

I wasn’t trying to denigrate the doctrine; I was just asking questions. At any rate, I do believe in an intermediate state, and I’m coming to believe that it involves further sanctification. My only remaining worry is whether or not the Catholic conception of it is over-defined (and keep in mind, this is a statement that is somewhat ignorant of the full Catholic teaching on the subject).

 

[paul_c]

I wasn’t trying to denigrate the doctrine; I was just asking questions. At any rate, I do believe in an intermediate state, and I’m coming to believe that it involves further sanctification. My only remaining worry is whether or not the Catholic conception of it is over-defined (and keep in mind, this is a statement that is somewhat ignorant of the full Catholic teaching on the subject).

The Catholic teaching is not very well defined because we know so little about what actually happens in purgatory. The only think we really know is that when we leave, we will be suitablly cleansed to enter heaven. And we believe that the cleansing process can be aided with prayer and good works on behalf of the person in Purgatory