B
brb2
Guest
How do we explain it away, when Christ and Paul teach it ?
- Status
D
Des
Guest
Nevertheless. I find it interesting you feel the Blood of Christ wasn’t sufficient to even cover a certain sin back then. Unless I misread you, it seems you’re saying they were doomed the minute you feel they blasphemed where no amount of repentance would help. Of course I disagree with your interpretation since the Church feels there has never been a soul out there that could not be cleansed of sin by the Sacrifice of the Cross so long as one repents. Anyways, this thread is about the last part of the verse which is still a good one to assist the Doctrine of Purgatory from the Bible.
P
paul_c
Guest
Really, what do you think they teach about the Rapture?
M
moondweller
Guest
Read the verse again:"For by one sacrifice He has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified."What took place in the past is the “one sacrifice” by which He has perfected for all time (in perpetuity) THE SANCTIFIED. Your translation, “Those who are being sanctified” is not reflected in the Greek. That’s a poor translation. It is those who ARE (present tense, and continue to be) sanctified. It’s a present, continuous condition. It’s true believers who are presently (in perpetuity) sanctified by faith in Christ. I don’t think you comprehended what I wrote. And I tend to think it was intentional, yes?
I’m already washed, sanctified and justified (1 Cor. 6:11). By “one sacrifice” He has perfected me “for all time.” And this was done by His suffering on my behalf, not mine. If I should die today I, like every true believer before me, will go straight into the presence of Christ, My Redeemer. The only change that I am yet to experience is the condition of my body from its present humble state into conformity with Christ’s glorified, resurrected body (Phil. 3:20-21). This will occur by either resurrection or translation. This is what is meant by my “condition” will be in conformity with my “position.” It’s called “ultimate” sanctification. Your purgatory plays no part in any of this. Because it was fitting for God to bring many sons to glory, not through their suffering (either here on earth or in your purgatory), but by the suffering of the Author of their salvation, Jesus Christ (Heb. 2:10; 10:10,14).
Purgatory, a doctrine rooted in unbelief, robs Christ of this glory.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Can you provide a source for this, James? I don’t know that I’ve heard that before.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Acknowledged. I’m just asking how *anyone *who understands sin, and understands even a teeny bit about the essence of The Divine Godhead, could doubt the existence of purgatory.
B
brb2
Guest
1st John 2:28, 1st Corinthians 15:51-52, 2nd Peter 3:10, Luke 17:24, Mark 13:24-27, Matt. 24:39-44, Matt. 24:27, Matt 24:30-31, Matt 16:27-28, and Acts 1:9-11.
Also, we know those of 1st century fully expected the return of Christ in their lifetimes … by rapture event [per Tradition-historical accounts].
A
adriancombe
Guest
On the contrary: not only did Paul not see Christ’s redemptive suffering as a ‘one time good deal’ - he understood his (and our) obligation to particIpate personally in Christ’s redemptive act:
Col 1:23 “if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”
Col 1:24 ¶ “I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,”
Rom 8:17 “and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,** if indeed we suffer with Him**, that we may also be glorified together.”
M
moondweller
Guest
One might be called to suffer here for the cause of Christ, like the Apostle Paul, but not for the cause of one’s redemption. Such a notion is blasphemous, indeed. You simple quote verses but have absolutely no idea what they mean.
T
Thing
Guest
There is no Rapture in Catholic Theology.
B
brb2
Guest
As I’m discovering … as a new Catholic. My question to you and PaulC is WHY NOT ?
Protestants clearly see this teaching in scriptures. Can they ALL be wrong ?
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
Everyone is called to suffer here for the cause of Christ!
Matt 10: 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.
Matt 16: 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Luke 9:23 And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Does Paul have anything to say about our suffering with Christ? Yes I think he does…
Nobody, no Christian religion on earth Moondweller (as your name aptly says) believes that suffering here on earth is for the cause of our redemption. Try to get some perspective!
Again I say, evangelicals and bac’s have NO theology of Penance. That is fundamental to Christianity and to the Gospel. How can you understand Purgatory without understanding the need for Penance?
P
PRmerger
Guest
What exactly do you mean by this Rapture, brb? I’m pretty sure that only a FEW Christians denominations believe in this Rapture. Can you provide us with what Protestants sects believe in this?
T
Thing
Guest
Yes.
Scripture is not what one decides it is. It is what the Church has always taught it to be, from the start.
Think of St. Phillip and the eunuch; the eunuch could not understand, he said unless the Apostle explained what the Scipture meant. These are the Traditions of the Church. The Traditional understanding of Scripture, what the Church always understood the Scriptures to mean. All I am saying is that the Church has not a Tradition of believing in the Rapture. That belief started not so long ago.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
Please don’t derail this thread with rapture arguments… 
J
James_N
Guest
If we’re talking about a premil rapture, not many Protestant denominatons believe in it. So the argument can get back to the original topic (not saying that you’re the derailing party).
N
ncgolf
Guest
Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church teachings on Purgatory.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III
M
moondweller
Guest
That’s not true.
That’s not necessarily experiencing “suffering.” You might want to look this word up.
Here’s his quote:Nobody, no Christian religion on earth Moondweller (as your name aptly says) believes that suffering here on earth is for the cause of our redemption. Try to get some perspective!
Now, to participate personally in Christ’s redemptive act by suffering is stating that your suffering contributes to your own redemption, and that of others as well. Divine redemption was achieved only through the shedding of the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19). One might suffer (even experience death) by speaking forth about this Divine truth (as Paul certainly did), but that suffering does not contribute one once to anyone’s personal redemption or the redemption of others.
No my dear friend, “penance and purgatory” are fundamental and unique to Catholicism, not “Christianity” as revealed in the Scriptures. Neither of them have Scriptural support.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Indeed, it is true, Moon. If you’ve ever loved anyone you must know that sacrifice and suffering are involved.
It’s impossible to love without sacrifice and suffering–this is made quite apparent to anyone who’s ever been a parent. Or been a spouse.
J
James_N
Guest
The first bit I agree with. Not sure about the second bit. Cleansing is needed, absolutely. That cleansing is a result of our sin. But is it a punishment or a purification? I’ve always taken the trials and suffering with Christ to not be a punishment for our sins but to be trials through which we are purified and grow closer to Christ. Of course, they would not be necessary without sin, but they’re not a punishment per se. This, I think, provides for an understanding of Purgatory without Penance, unless I misunderstand one (or both) of the two doctrines.
- Status