purgatory

[guanophore]

He sent the Apostles out to Baptize in Matthew 28: 18-20 did he not. That is a sacramental system. He told the disciples that they needed to eat his body and drink his blood and to do this in memory of me at the last supper, did he not? That’s a sacramental system. He taught the disciples how to heal by laying on of hands, did he not? that’s a sacramental system. Do you deny that Marriage is sacred? that’s part of the sacramental system. He told the apostles that whatever sins they forgave would be forgiven didn’t he? That is part of the sacramental system. The laying on of hands for Confirmation and ordination came through the holy spirit on Pentacost. they were not needed during Jesus’ lifetime on earth.

I agree with your point that Jesus instituted the sacramental life,but I think it is a mistake to fall into the Reformed mischaracterization of these avenues of grace as a “system”. The term implies that each one is dependent upon the others, which is not the case, and that all the parts must be operated (by man) in order for them to “produce work” or the end result.

 

[Thing]

Here, here! At the top of the page there was a brief advertisement for “God’s Perfect Plan. Purgatory and Indulgences Explained.” Yeah, but where are they “REVEALED?” How do you “explain” things that aren’t revealed?

12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

“Teach you all things”… Here the Holy Ghost is promised to the apostles and their successors, particularly, in order to teach them all truth, and to preserve them from error.

 

[Thing]

Still waiting for someone to show me where the apostles ever taught purgatory…

The Scriptures forbid the drinking of blood. (Gen 9:4; Leviticus 7:26; Leviticus 17:10-14; Acts 15:28-29). Even the Gentile Christians after the resurrection of Christ were to abstain from eating blood. If Christ was asking believers to eat His flesh and blood, He would be going against the clear teaching of scripture in numerous places.

Why should Truth be unanimous?? There is only one absolute Truth. How can we know what is truth if people are divided on what it is? Jesus said thy Word is Truth. If you quote church fathers and 3 agree with what the Scripture teaches and 3 others disagree, then what does that tell you? They all do not have the truth.

27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Yet He tells the Apostles to drink His blood.

 

[Thing]

I guess you couldn’t answer my questions…

You offer nothing to substantiate that for 2,000 years the majority of Christians believed in purgatory. I find nothing of this in Christian history. Nor do I find it in the Scriptures.

Keep thinking about what I posted. Don’t let yourself get distracted.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus says nothing about preparing oneself for eternal life…

I think you are omitting the letters in Revelation, where He is quite clear that our present activity prepares us for eternal life.

Do you think the Apostles made up all that stuff on their own? If the HS could stop Ananias and Sapphira from lying to the Church, why was the HS so weak or inattentive that He was unable to prevent the Apostles from teaching error?

… and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life

."[/indent]It looks to me that Jesus taught that one who has believed in Him HAS eternal life.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

The only hindrance for receiving this LIFE is unbelief. To not believe the gospel message of what He has DONE, once for all, through His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection.The Apostle Paul follows through with his teaching on eternal life and states:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."In context Paul is stating that death came to all of us as a consequence of Adam’s sin. But eternal life is gifted to the believer in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Did you think that the Catholic Church believed otherwise?

What on earth are they TEACHING you over there?

Matt. 5:25-26 mentions nothing about eternal life nor one suffering in the flames of purgatory as a payment for not making friends with someone before he goes to court.

You seem to be triviializing the Scriptures here, Moon.The teaching is about making amends with those who have a charge against you. When we sin, we engage in dead works. These must be burned from us, so that we can enter heaven, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Besides, making reparation for the harm you have caused others does not necessarily equate to making friends.

You see what I mean that you READ INTO verses your fully formed doctrine, but the verse itself states nothing of the sort?

Yes, I see what you mean. I see it when my Reformed brethren add “before men” when James says "you see that he was justified by his works.

 

[guanophore]

They say only “those who know what kingdom he is referring to.” Where do you get this in the text?

Most of our Reformed brethren have been infected with the modern innovation of “despensationalism”. Some of them even say that Jesus did not have a whole lot to say about salvation, since He was talking to the Jews. Therefore, most of His teachings do not apply to Gentiles, and the teaching for the Gentiles on salvation is found in the letters of Paul.

I don't believe in works alone. I don't think they can save me.  I don't know why you can't understand this as I have said many times that Christ died for all of our sins and saved us.

If he were to accept that what he had been given to believe about the Catholic faith was wrong, he might then need to learn the Truth, or become responsible for it.

Could it be that you may have actually missed this glorious, Divine principle and the simplicity of it?" Again, I believe Christ saved us. And I am kind of put off by your condescension here.

Moon really does have a condescending tone.

Yes, I think those who minimize the role of works do miss the glorious. It is He who is glorified in the life and works of HIs saints.

 

[guanophore]

Where does the Scriptures make any distinction between venial and mortal sins? This is catholic invention.

I guess, to the extent that the entire NT is “a Catholic invention” then it is. The reason it is in the NT is because it is Catholic,a nd the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

It is true that the term “venial” is a Latinization. It refers to the sins that John describes as “not mortal”.

 Catholicism distinguishes between venial sins-- sins that are not so serious that they involve the destruction of justifying grace-- and mortal sins, which are sins so serious that the grace of Justification can be destroyed within man.

If you understood this, why did you say it was not in the Bible?

If a man commits a mortal sin and destroys his Justification, in order for him to regain it, Catholicism teaches he must come via the Sacrament of Penance, which involves confession, absolution, and satisfaction. Where is all this in our Holy Bible?

You seem to be proceeding from the false premise that everything pertaining to our salvation is found in the bible. Even the Bible testifies to the opposite. Besides, what does this have to do with purgatory?

  And you want to talk about protestants being on a treadmill!

Yes. The notion that a person is not really “saved” because they fall into mortal sin, so that they have to keep answering the altar call and getting born again because it did not “take” the first time seems like a treadmill to me.

 For non catholic Christians, Justification depends solely on Christ's meritorious life and atoning death and not upon anything which a man can do,

News flash, Jacob. This is also true of Catholic Christians.

a man could not lose his Justification.

Can you give me the chapter and verse for this statement?

  Since Christ has already lived a perfect life and died to pay for all of man's sins, nothing will ever change what Christ did which is the basis of a man's Justification.

This is certainly true. However, we know that not all men are saved, are they? therefore, His once for all work that forms the basis for justification does not apply to everyone, does it?

Therefore, once a person believes in Christ, he or she is secure.

This certainly seems to be what you have been taught, though it is not consistent with teh biblical evidence.

 

[guanophore]

Because salvation is totally a gift from God based on Christ’s atoning death for us, while believing in Christ, the total number of good or bad deeds a person does will not change this gift from God.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

Catholics believe their Justification  depends on their works co-operating with Christ.

No, Jacob. You have been misinformed. We are justified by grace, through faith. If you wish to read about it, I suggest the Joint Declaration on Justification. It is free on the Internet, and will help you correct this error so you don’t have to keep looking foolish by perpetrating it.

They are taught that because a man cannot know his own heart, and because he is subject to many temptations, a man may commit a variety of mortal sins, any one of which could destroy his Justification.

Well, yes and no. We are taught that we cannot know our own heart, and that we are subject to many temptations, and that we may commit any variety of mortal sins. However, the first two have nothing to do with the last. A mortal sin, by definition, is not accidental or unconsicious. It is true that mortal sins fatally wound our relationship with God. It would be a mistake, though, to say that justification is “undone” in the person. the effects of our justification are permanent.

That is why the Council of Trent stated, “Each one, when he regards himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.”

Do you think it is impossible for Christians to fall into error?

So for Catholicism, a man can lose his Justification and can’t be sure he will someday be in heaven.

It would be more accurate to say that man would fail to obtain his salvation. You see, the Apostles taught that our salvation is not completed in this life. There are aspects of it that are passed, some present, and some that are yet to come.

 If you don't believe you can work your way to the entrance of heaven, then why do you depend upon your church's 7 sacramental system?

What is a “sacramental system”?

Sacraments are not works of the flesh. Man cannot “work” his way to heaven.

Penances, prayers to and for the dead, asking your priest for absolution, masses said, charity works, rosary, indulgences, etc etc. If you were to stop doing all these things, what do you believe will happen to you if you died?

That would depend upon whether one died in a state of grace.

 Like others keep telling you,  You haven't dealt with any of your sins. You're still working on them, praying that you won't die right after you commit some mortal sin.

There is a big difference between working OUT ones salvation, and working ON ones salvation. Salvation is infused within us at baptism. We work out the grace of it throughout our lives here on earth.

Actually, a pious Catholic will pray that we don’t commit a mortal sin at all, for the rest of our lives!

I guess Jesus didn’t pay for your sins, did he? He didn’t nail any of them to the Cross did he? Did Christ, or did he not, fully redeem you?

Sure He did! He nailed the sins to the cross. The bond of judgement has been taken away. You notice, though, He did not spare the thief next to Him from the just condemnation of his deeds. Jesus paid the eternal price of our sins, but at times He ordains that we should pay the temporal ones for the purpose of purifying our souls.

Nor do you understand what sola scriptura means.

This is not surprising, given the plethora of definitions floating about.

If you want to discuss sola scriptura, I’d be happy to.

Been there, done that. It is possibly one of the most damaging heresies to arise out of the reformation. Grist for another thread!

 

[PRmerger]

I see you’re still having to go outside of Scripture to explain your doctrine.

Pssst, moon…did you know that *you *have posted a multitude of times with things outside of Scripture to explain your doctrine?

Here’s one example:

Originally posted by moon: I’ve pointed this out often to those I’ve taught. More often than not when it’s theologically exposed to them they readily understand their error and repent of it - and I must say, with GREAT JOY! Those who refused correction invariably had a fundamental problem with Divine GRACE.

Heck, even your signature is “outside of Scripture”.

 

[brb2]

Luke 16:19-31

.

The rich man is in Hades. What in this parable supports teaching of purgatory ?

 

[adriancombe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by adriancombe
On the contrary: not only did Paul not see Christ’s redemptive suffering as a ‘one time good deal’ - he understood his (and our) obligation to particIpate personally in Christ’s redemptive act:

MD:
Paul, in Col. 1:24, in context, is not at all stating that he, or we, participate with Christ in our redemption through our own personal suffering. In fact, he states nothing about redemption in those verses, whatsoever. To conclude that Paul was stating there that Christ’s, once for all, sacrifice was somehow insufficient and required something yet from us contradicts his overall teachings in his Epistles on one of the fundamental issues of his gospel. Paul didn’t preach a gospel stamped on it, “some assembly required.” In respect to His sacrificial work for our redemption Jesus Himself said, “it is finished,” not, “to be finished by you.” And the total efficiency of Christ’s sacrificial work, to be believed, was Paul’s gospel.

AC:

Sir, respectfully,

You present the appearance of desperately attempting to avoid the truth. You have been presented with clear evidence that our inheritance is stipulated on suffering with Christ. Paul even specifies making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. You cannot get around the truth. I humbly implore you to embrace it instead.

 

[moondweller]

Pssst, moon…did you know that *you *have posted a multitude of times with things outside of Scripture to explain your doctrine?

Pssst, PR, you keep missing the point. I have yet to see where “Purgatory,” “Temporal Punishment,” and “Indulgences” are revealed and taught in Scripture. Don’t you think they should be Divinely revealed before men attempt to explain them. Isn’t that the old expression, “getting the cart before the horse?” If the Apostles knew nothing of them, how is it you guys do? Or do you? Some call purgatory a place, others say it’s not at all. Some say purgatory’s compared to taking “yucky medicine,” others say it’s tremendously painful, while others have stated no pain at all but really just a “walk in the park.” Some say its a place for cleansing the soul of venial sins, others say no not sins, but only the “effects” of sins (whatever that is). Another states that it’s a place where one pays up the last cent for their sins.

All this from no revelation at all. Lots of chatter based on deafening silence.

 

[moondweller]

AC:

Sir, respectfully,

You present the appearance of desperately attempting to avoid the truth. You have been presented with clear evidence that our inheritance is stipulated on suffering with Christ. Paul even specifies making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ. You cannot get around the truth. I humbly implore you to embrace it instead.

Sorry, AC, but that’s impossible since I’ve already, by faith, embraced GRACE. :extrahappy: I humbly implore you to do the same.

 

[PRmerger]

Pssst, PR, you keep missing the point. I have yet to see where “Purgatory,” “Temporal Punishment,” and “Indulgences” are revealed and taught in Scripture. Don’t you think they should be Divinely revealed before men attempt to explain them. Isn’t that the old expression, “getting the cart before the horse?” If the Apostles knew nothing of them, how is it you guys do? Or do you? Some call purgatory a place, others say it’s not at all. Some say purgatory’s compared to taking “yucky medicine,” others say it’s tremendously painful, while others have stated no pain at all but really just a “walk in the park.” Some say its a place for cleansing the soul of venial sins, others say no not sins, but only the “effects” of sins (whatever that is). Another states that it’s a place where one pays up the last cent for their sins.

All this from no revelation at all. Lots of chatter based on deafening silence.

Ok. I’m just saying…

(BTW, the above is another post you made that uses things “outside of Scripture” to provide an explanation for your doctrine of no purgatory. I would hope that you would hold yourself up to the same standard as you do Catholics.)

The poster was just hoping to provide you with a parable or an allegorical tale to help you in your understanding. Nothing wrong with that, is there, really?

 

[adriancombe]

Sorry, AC, but that’s impossible since I’ve already, by faith, embraced GRACE. :extrahappy: I humbly implore you to do the same.

Impossible, as you openly reject God’s Word.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

Pssst, PR, you keep missing the point. I have yet to see where “Purgatory,” “Temporal Punishment,” and “Indulgences” are revealed and taught in Scripture. Don’t you think they should be Divinely revealed before men attempt to explain them.

Your definition of Divine Revelation is flawed. The Catholic Church, since apostolic times, has been the oracle of Divine Revelation. That hasn’t changed even until now. The Scriptures which you falsely conclude is the whole sum of Divine Revelations, is just a sealed book to the unbeliever. Practically all non-Catholic Christians assume they can shove the Church aside and read, interpret, and teach the Scriptures for themselves. But they are usurping the authority of the Church which was Divinely appointed by Jesus Christ himself, to reside within his Church. St. Paul himself says NOT All are teachers. But you block your ears whenever Paul says something which doesn’t square with your false assumptions and usurpations. You are therefore blind to all of the Scriptural proofs for Purgatory, temporal punishments, and indulgences. They are definitely there in Sacred Scripture, but to one to whom the book is sealed, it is undetected.

How many times have I had to correct you on your false assumption that only Christians have divine revelations? It’s because you don’t understand divine revelations. ALL RELIGIONS claim they have divine revelations, even bacs, but that doesn’t make it so. If you are going to place all of your faith in divine revelations (and you should) then you must take the matter more seriously than just jumping to easy or comfortable conclusions. You must look within yourself, and ask yourself, if you would be capable (or willing) to follow Divine Revelations wherever they lead. Would God entrust his revelations to just a book of print, or to inspired writers. Would God entrust the teaching of this book to just anyone who picks it up, or to inspired teachers? Is salvation of so little value (in God’s eyes) that He wouldn’t take every necessary precaution to ensure that His TRUE WORD is correctly taught for all time?

 

[guanophore]

this is the very complaint that biblical Christians have concerning catholics.

Jacob, Catholics ARE biblical Christians. The fact that we understand the bible differently does not not make us less “biblical”.

The catholic keeps saying they don’t believe in a works salvation and yet they turn around and say: “I can’t miss Mass, its a sin”.

Should we continue sinning, that grace may abound? I think that you are missing the point about the Mass…

If a person does not want to meet with Jesus, then something is wrong with the relationship. If you had been living in Galilee, and heard he was on the beach, and chose not to go out, what might that say about the state of your heart? However, that is grist for another thread, is it not?

“I have to do everything in the sacramental system in my church. Obey my church rules and rituals. I have to confess to the priest, say my rosary”, etc etc. This is all we hear.

Well, I am not sure who “we” are in this context. I have never heard a Catholic talk like this. In fact, I have never heard the terms “sacramental system” from anywhere but anti-catholics."

Yesterday I had to get off the phone because “I had to go take the laundry out of the dryer”. I did not want the clothes to wrinkle. If I put a cake in the oven, I “have to” go take it out at the proper time, or it will be ruined. Are you under the impression, when we come to Christ, we no longer live in this world? Do you think we have no responsibilities about our faith? House chores, maybe, but not for our faith?

We never hear: I am trusting in Christ alone. Or, I accept His finished work at Calvary.

No, probably not. These phrases came out of the reformation,and are not commonly used by Catholics. Besides, Catholics know that Christ is never alone. He is always accompanied by His angels and saints. We are conscious of being surrounded by the great cloud of witnesses described in Heb. 11.

Where is the simplicity of Jesus’ teachings in roman catholic theology? Catholics are so caught up in personal works that Jesus gets pushed aside.

You have a very strange perception of Catholics. It appears that you have been acquainted with some Catholics that did not understand grace.

The average catholic spends more time venerating, praying and bowing to Mary than to Jesus who paid for your sins, suffered and died for you,making it possible for you to have eternal life.

Jacob, you cannot make statistical assertions on CAF without documentation. Please supply the study that concludes what you are asserting here.

In fact, you are creating a false dichotomy. Marys sould “magnifies the Lord”.
Do you think she had nothing to do with Chirst bringing us eternal life?

Jesus is confined to the host/wafer.

Jacob, this is an erroneous and insulting statement, in addition to being off topic. It seems that you have so much anti-catholic hostility that you can’t even stay focused on the topic!

I have never once heard a catholic say: “I pray to Jesus all the time.” “He’s my personal Savior and I trust him alone for my eternal salvation”. Instead, the catholic goes to the priest and asks for absolution.

It does seem that your experiences with Catholics are very limited. This is regrettable. However, you are creating another false dichotomy here. We go to the priest for absolution BECAUSE we trust Jesus for our salvation,and that is how He set it up.

This is why roman catholics vehemently balk at: justification is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone… You cannot accept the word: “alone” in this sentence. Why? Because you are trusting more in your church works than in Christ.

I can understand why it seems that way to you, but it is not the case. We can’t accept those terms because they reflect theological errors.

you believe Christ died for ALL sins, then why the need for purification after death. Did he or did he not nail those sins to the cross? If he did, then why the distinction of venial and mortal sins and why the need for purgatory?

It is good you have worked your way back around to the topic, and I think these are very good and relevant questions. It seems to me, though, that you are not really interested in the answer to them. I have answered this several times on this thread, so it seems that maybe you are not reading. Could it be that you did not come here to get answers,but just to villify Catholics?

No matter how many times Protestants tell the catholics on here that Christ completely purifies the sinner who comes to him in true repentance and quote all the scriptural references, you all ignore, deny or claim Christ doesn’t do that.

You are missing the point, Jacob. In fact, these are EXACTLY the things that Christ does in purgatory (if they are not finished on earth before we die).

There’s a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof leads to death. The road to destruction and hell is wide but the one that leads to eternal life is narrow and few that be that find it. Matt. 7:13

Amen!

 

[yankee_drifter]

I agree. It seems that you have some erroneous perception that practicing sacraments and rituals is something “other than Christ” and this is not the case. The ultimate sacrament is Eucharist, during which He gave Himself to us in the form of bread and wine.

It is “other than Christ”. He never instituted a sacramental system. He alone is the Way, the Life and the Truth. Its not your way or my way.

The Eucharist is to be done in Remembrance Of Christ. Remembrance of what? Certainly not His death and sacrifice on the cross. It hadn’t happen yet! But His earthly ministry. All that He taught.

I see nowhere that Jesus ever taught purgatory. For the apostles to teach it, they would have to deny Christ’s perfect, complete, all sufficient blood atonement at Calvary.

You would have to remove the Book Of Hebrews from the Bible. This book tells us clearly that Christ purifies the sinner who comes to Him in true repentance. That Christ effected man’s purgation.

 

[JacobG]

I guess, to the extent that the entire NT is “a Catholic invention” then it is. The reason it is in the NT is because it is Catholic,a nd the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

It is true that the term “venial” is a Latinization. It refers to the sins that John describes as “not mortal”.

If you understood this, why did you say it was not in the Bible?

You seem to be proceeding from the false premise that everything pertaining to our salvation is found in the bible. Even the Bible testifies to the opposite. Besides, what does this have to do with purgatory?

Yes. The notion that a person is not really “saved” because they fall into mortal sin, so that they have to keep answering the altar call and getting born again because it did not “take” the first time seems like a treadmill to me.

News flash, Jacob. This is also true of Catholic Christians.

Can you give me the chapter and verse for this statement?

This is certainly true. However, we know that not all men are saved, are they? therefore, His once for all work that forms the basis for justification does not apply to everyone, does it?

This certainly seems to be what you have been taught, though it is not consistent with teh biblical evidence.

First of all this is the purgatory thread and we have been warned to stick to the topic. So I can’t answer any more questions not having to do with purgatory. (You can always PM me… )

Purgatory was never taught by Christ. Never taught by the apostles. The best you can muster is from an uninspired apocryphal book: Maccabees, which was written during the 400 year silence after Malachi when there were no prophets on the earth. No revelations were given during this time period

We did not get the Bible from the RCC, nor were the NT writers roman catholics. Monks did copy and preserve what was already written, but that’s all the credit you can claim .

For you to give me Latin definitions is meaningless…

 

[ncgolf]

It is “other than Christ”. He never instituted a sacramental system. He alone is the Way, the Life and the Truth. Its not your way or my way.

You are right … Jesus did not create a sacramental system. Catholics don’t have a sacramental system … so what’s the beef?

The Eucharist is to be done in Remembrance Of Christ. Remembrance of what? Certainly not His death and sacrifice on the cross. It hadn’t happen yet! But His earthly ministry. All that He taught.

Well … John 6 certainly does not explain it in those terms? Don’t you think the Apostles eyes were opened about Jesus’s words in John 6 … after his death and resurrection. It was obvious they did not understand when Jesus initially spoke. John’s words take on a literal meaning precisely because of the passage of time and events … and the revealing power of the HS.

I see nowhere that Jesus ever taught purgatory. For the apostles to teach it, they would have to deny Christ’s perfect, complete, all sufficient blood atonement at Calvary.

He did … nothing imperfect shall enter heaven.

You would have to remove the Book Of Hebrews from the Bible.

Well … we already have had groups removing Scriptural books haven’t we … so for some this may be easier than for others.

This book tells us clearly that Christ purifies the sinner who comes to Him in true repentance. That Christ effected man’s purgation.

How does this eliminate Purgatory? We agree it is Christ doing the purgation … what’s the beef? The timing … we say if it is not complete in our earthly lifetimes it will be before entering heaven? I don’t think Scripture is adamant about the timing of said perfecting.