purgatory

[moondweller]

Sanctification and growing in holiness is a PROCESS which spans our lives.

Yes, this is true for experiential/practical sanctification. The believer’s walk by faith while still on this earth in these yet unredeemed (non-glorified) bodies. No problem there. All the exhortations in the Epistles to live holy lives are addressed to our lives here and now, for Christ’s sake.

When one understands this Biblical truth, then one understands that this process must at some point be completed, at which time we are perfectly sanctified and holy.

Actually, that’s not true. The other aspect of sanctification as revealed in the Scriptures is having been positionally sanctified, once for all, in the risen Christ at the time of faith:Acts 26:18 ".…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,…”

Heb 10:10 By “…this will we have been sanctified (how?) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

Obviously, that process is not completed when we die, because at that moment of death we are still imperfect and are sinners.

No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).

The only logical conclusion is that the process is completed AFTER death. Hence, Purgatory.

(1) Based on what’s revealed in Scripture about us who have been sanctified in the risen Christ no purgatory is necessary. (2) For this reason purgatory is not, can not, will not be found in the Scriptures. Based on what’s revealed in them purgatory is an illogical conclusion.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s according to your tradition, not the Word of God. According to what is written, every true believer enters heaven having already been washed in the blood of Christ. That’s not just “a little injection of basic common sense,” but Divinely revealed truth. Divinely revealed truth does not always make much sense to the “common” man. But to the spiritual man who has believed what God has said, it certainly does, and he rejoices in it.

1. You are already washed in His blood.
2. This washing is what makes you perfect and fit for entering heaven so that purgatory is unnecessary.
3. Therefore, you must be perfect now.

Is that the case?

If not, will you be perfect at the exact moment of death?

If not, when exactly will you be perfect so that you can enter heaven?

You’ve been citing Hebrews 10:14 repeatedly as if it somehow disproves the doctrine of purgatory, but I wonder if it would not be wise to read on a bit further. Hebrews 12:1 states:
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

Paul encourages his readers to “throw off the sin which so easily entangles.” Notice that Paul uses the word “sin” and not “sins.” He’s speaking of the principle that inclines us toward evil and not individual acts of disobedience.

Obviously, this sin was NOT thrown off completely or once-for-all at any point in the past life of the believer. Conceivably, then, one could still be entangled in this inclination toward wrong-doing (concupisence) or things that “hinder” at the moment of death. Breaking free of the pull of sin is like breaking free of the pull of gravity. In this life we resist the pull of gravity like a spaceship in orbit resists gravity. Once we are freed from this pull, we are able to continue our journey toward our eternal destination unhindered.

Since the ETERNAL effect of our our grave sins, hell, has already been dealt with by the Blood of Christ, only the remaining temporal effects of sin must be cleansed by that same Blood.

Jesus deals with these temporal effects of sin in a process of purgation that we call Purgatory.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints”…

Are you trying to tell me you are not a sinner? You do not sin? I see. So the Blessed Virgin is not without sin, but you are. Is that how it goes? Pulleeeezz.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

.

 

[moondweller]

Fair enough.

I’m just saying that you have a very, very peculiar paradigm in which you can claim PURITY, but deny the same to another creature, Mary. who was most certainly washed in the blood of the Lamb–in the most extraordinary way to be sure!

AND, in which you can claim you can be assumed straight into heaven, yet deny the same to another creature, Mary–the BLESSED one (according to Scripture, yes??)

I’m not saying that I’m going to PROVE Mary’s assumption here. I’m just saying that if YOU believe it’s possible for yourself–the logical conclusion is that you should also believe it’s possible for Mary. YOU believe in purity of your soul at this very moment–the logical conclusion is that you should also believe it’s possible for Mary.

Of course, any denial of this logic is obfuscation caused by the Deceiver.

I DO believe Mary is right now in the presence of Christ in heaven. And I DO believe, like me, if I also die, her body will be resurrected unto glory, in conformity to Christ’s (Phil. 3:20-21), along with all who have died in Christ, at the rapture of the church (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

I do believe what God has made possible for me He has made possible for Mary as well. She’s my sister in Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

I DO believe Mary is right now in the presence of Christ in heaven. And I DO believe, like me, if I also die, her body will be resurrected unto glory, in conformity to Christ’s (Phil. 3:20-21), along with all who have died in Christ, at the rapture of the church (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

I do believe what God has made possible for me He has made possible for Mary as well. She’s my sister in Christ.

Good! Then you ought to have no problem with our calling the Blessed Mother sinless.

Nor should you have any problem–theoretically, albeit–with her Assumption.

It’s simply logical, yes?

 

[moondweller]

Are you trying to tell me you are not a sinner? You do not sin? I see. So the Blessed Virgin is not without sin, but you are. Is that how it goes? Pulleeeezz.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

.

Where in my post did I say I don’t sin, “Pulleeezz”? Here’s an amazing verse, I_C, on which you might want to ponder. It reveals something quite wonderful about God:Rom 4:17 "As it is written, I have made you the father of many nations. [He was appointed our father] in the sight of God in Whom he believed, Who gives life to the dead and speaks of the nonexistent things that [He has foretold and promised] as if they [already] existed.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I DO believe Mary is right now in the presence of Christ in heaven. And I DO believe, like me, if I also die, her body will be resurrected unto glory, in conformity to Christ’s (Phil. 3:20-21), along with all who have died in Christ, at the rapture of the church (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

I do believe what God has made possible for me He has made possible for Mary as well. She’s my sister in Christ.

Except, of course, that God has already done for His Mother, His Queen, what we hope that He will someday do for us if we are found to be as worthy as she is.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Are you trying to tell me you are not a sinner? You do not sin? I see. So the Blessed Virgin is not without sin, but you are. Is that how it goes? Pulleeeezz.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

.

Where in my post did I say I don’t sin, “Pulleeezz”?..

Dude, you just got through saying:

“No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).”

Now are you “perfect” or not? Are you a “sinner” or not? You are trying to have it both ways, and that ain’t gonna fly.

 

[moondweller]

Good! Then you ought to have no problem with our calling the Blessed Mother sinless.

I have absolutely no problem calling Mary at this time sinless. As are all the saints who are now in the presence of Christ awaiting the resurrection of their bodies. And I can certainly call her “blessed,” but never my “blessed Mother.” I have no spiritual mother.

Nor should you have any problem–theoretically, albeit–with her Assumption.

Again, very faulty logic. Very faulty, indeed. Else I would have to assume all the saints now in the presence of Christ have their glorified bodies. Such an “assumption” (pardon the pun) would be false.

It’s simply logical, yes?

Obviously not.

 

[PRmerger]

Where in my post did I say I don’t sin,

Right here:

Originally Posted by guanophore
I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ,** in whom there is no imperfection**, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

Quote:
[SIGN]Originally Posted by moondweller
This is true. [/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

I have absolutely no problem calling Mary at this time sinless.

Now, how did I know you were going to say that? It’s like you do with Scripture–you take something and make it fit your paradigm.

You know we were talking about your objection to the Catholic belief on Mary’s sinlessness.

Based on your own assumptions (ha ha!) about your own sinlessness and PURITY, you have no basis for objecting to the Catholic Church’s teachings on the Blessed Mother’s sinlessness.

Nor, her Assumption.

 

[moondweller]

Dude, you just got through saying:

“No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).”

Now are you “perfect” or not? Are you a “sinner” or not? You are trying to have it both ways, and that ain’t gonna fly.

I guess I have to take you by the hand and point it out to you: “…are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).” I pointed out the reason they’re not “CALLED” sinners. Did you catch that or must I take you by the hand again?

 

[moondweller]

Now, how did I know you were going to say that? It’s like you do with Scripture–you take something and make it fit your paradigm.

You know we were talking about your objection to the Catholic belief on Mary’s sinlessness.

Based on your own assumptions (ha ha!) about your own sinlessness and PURITY, you have no basis for objecting to the Catholic Church’s teachings on the Blessed Mother’s sinlessness.

Nor, her Assumption.

I have never “assumed” or asserted sinlessness. And please don’t say that I have. However, what I have written has gone straight over your head - and I believe intentionally, yes?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…I can certainly call her “blessed,” but never my “blessed Mother.” I have no spiritual mother…

Thats because you do not grasp the full meaning of “Covenant”. In Heberew culture, a Covenant is the means by which one enters a family. In this case, we enter into the Family of God.

This is why we call God “Father”, why we call each other brother and sister, because we are adopted children of God. But more than that, this is why the saints in heaven are also our elder brothers and sisters, and why Mary is our spiritual mother. Its why we call priests “father” and nuns like Mother Theresa “mother”. Jesus wants you to have all of this, in fact he DIED so that you may have all of this.

Being a Christian is not just a about a “personal” relationship with Jesus. I have a personal relationship with my mechanic, but that does not make him part of my family! Jesus wants you to be part of the family of God, which includes you, me, our Father, the saints, and our mother Mary.

Its all about family. Which, by the why, is why the tired old question “Have you been saved” is so narrow and besides the point. Being a Christian is not about avoiding hell, its about entering into the Family of God - and that includes your mother, Mary!

I guess I have to take you by the hand and point it out to you: “…are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).” I pointed out the reason they’re not “CALLED” sinners. Did you catch that or must I take you by the hand again?

I never asked you what you were called. I asked you if you WERE a sinner, and those verses were your reply.

 

[PRmerger]

I have never “assumed” or asserted sinlessness. And please don’t say that I have. However, what I have written has gone straight over your head - and I believe intentionally, yes?

See Post #1076.

Regardless, you cannot deny the same that you claim for yourself to Mary, the BLESSED mother.

You have worked yourself into a corner (again), moon, by not fully reflecting upon all the implications of your Scriptural interpretations.

If you are perfect, then Mary is perfect. If you can go directly into heaven, so can Mary.

 

[moondweller]

Right here:

Originally Posted by guanophore
I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ,** in whom there is no imperfection**, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

Quote:
[SIGN]Originally Posted by moondweller
This is true. [/SIGN]

It is true, According to the Scriptures I am positionally in the risen Christ, in whom there is no imperfection. This is called “positional” sanctification. Every true believer is now, positionally, in the risen Christ (no longer in Adam), according to Scriptures. I’ve given plenty of Scriptural references on this truth. And because of this Divine revelation (it had to be Divinely revealed since it’s not experiential - being addressed to faith), purgatory can find no place in those sacred writings.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…This is called “positional” sanctification…

Was there someone in this thread talking about manmade doctrines?

" 'positional’ sanctification" ???

wow

.

 

[moondweller]

See Post #1076.

Regardless, you cannot deny the same that you claim for yourself to Mary, the BLESSED mother.

You have worked yourself into a corner (again), moon, by not fully reflecting upon all the implications of your Scriptural interpretations.

If you are perfect, then Mary is perfect. If you can go directly into heaven, so can Mary.

I do not at all deny that Mary went straight into the presence of Christ at the time of her death. Nor do I deny that she, like all the saints who have “died in Christ,” are awaiting the time when Christ Himself will transform the body of her humble state into conformity with the body of His - along with all of us who have been washed in His blood.

 

[PRmerger]

It is true, According to the Scriptures I am positionally in the risen Christ, in whom there is no imperfection.

What in the world?

Positionally in the risen Christ?

More obfuscation. More circumlocutions.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not at all deny that Mary went straight into the presence of Christ at the time of her death.

Because she was perfect at the time of her “death”?

If so, at what point in her life was she ever imperfect? Do you have a Scripture verse for that?