purgatory

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Was there someone in this thread talking about manmade doctrines?

" 'positional’ sanctification" ???

wow

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No, it’s called Biblical theology. The doctrine is thoroughly revealed in the N.T. Epistles, especially Pauline. It’s part of the insight Paul was given into the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 1-5), and by the stewardship of God’s grace he was commissioned to teach it to the churches, and by the work of the Holy Spirit preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures.
 
No, it’s called Biblical theology. The doctrine is thoroughly revealed in the N.T. Epistles, especially Pauline…
Really. Well I never saw it. There is good theology and bogus theology. That one sounds a bit bogus to me.

Is that kind of like how protestants say that Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are also taught in the NT, when in fact they are nowhere to be found?
 
No, it’s called Biblical theology. The doctrine is thoroughly revealed in the N.T. Epistles, especially Pauline. It’s part of the insight Paul was given into the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 1-5), and by the stewardship of God’s grace he was commissioned to teach it to the churches, and by the work of the Holy Spirit preserved for us in the theopneustos Scriptures.
Interesting. :hmmm:

I don’t believe the word “positional” is found in Scripture. Ever.

Perhaps in the Greek, moon? Do you have the original Greek for “positional” or “positionally”? 🍿

How ironic that this new doctrine–based on a word not found in Scripture–is being introduced in a thread about Purgatory, a word also not found in Scripture (accusing tone often accompanying that objection!)
 
Because she was perfect at the time of her “death”?

If so, at what point in her life was she ever imperfect? Do you have a Scripture verse for that?
Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.And please, no nonsense about someone being saved from falling into a hole before they fell into it. That’s called rationalizing. :rolleyes:
 
…And please, no nonsense about someone being saved from falling into a hole before they fell into it. That’s called rationalizing. :rolleyes:
But using a manmade doctrine called “positional sanctification” to justifiy saying that you’re in the risen Christ and therefore have no imperfection is NOT rationalizing?

You’re really stretching it now
 
Interesting. :hmmm:

I don’t believe the word “positional” is found in Scripture. Ever.

Perhaps in the Greek, moon? Do you have the original Greek for “positional” or “positionally”? 🍿

How ironic that this new doctrine–based on a word not found in Scripture–is being introduced in a thread about Purgatory, a word also not found in Scripture (accusing tone often accompanying that objection!)
No, my dear friend, the concept of purgatory is to be found nowhere in Scripture. That’s why some of you claim it’s painful, other not. It’s whatever is popular at the time. Catholics not too long ago fully understood by the teaching of their priests that it was an indefinite time of terrible pain. Point is, one must form his theology on purgatory outside of Scripture. No Divine revelation! Not so with positional sanctification. I provided you with plenty of Pauline teachings on the subject.
 
No, my dear friend, the concept of purgatory is to be found nowhere in Scripture…
Correction: The concept of purgatory is to be found nowhere in your personal interpretation of Scripture.

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: “Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it” (Heb. 12:1–12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something “lacking in Christ’s afflictions,” and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13–14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Matt. 5:25–26). It can also be mentioned that Christian women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s original sin (Rom. 5:12–21).

The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While “for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant” (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, “that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6), even if it should be “as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:15).

info source

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No, my friend, I asked her for NAMES of those who witnessed her bodily assumption into heaven. Jesus Himself left us with eye witnesses of His bodily resurrection and ascension. I would expect no less of Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven if it was at all true.
Sometimes things are not always as we expect, are they? You did not answer my question…how do you know that Peter and Paul were not bodily assumed into heaven?

Do you really think you have been unclear about your refusal to accept anything you cannot see in scripture?
true Christianity is not based on “blind” faith.1 John 1:1-3 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ."That’s not blind faith, my friend. Nothing is left to legends as it is with the religions of this world, ancient and modern. It’s what sets true Christianity apart from ANY of them.
I did not claim it was. But our faith is not based upon Mary’s assumption, either. 😃

There are many mysteries involved in our faith that are beyond the senses to grasp. This does not make them any less “true”.
 
Oh my gosh, guanophore, they were there to bury a man, not venerate the bones of Elisha.
Yes, of course! Did I claim otherwise?

I think what happened was completely unexpected. Are you trying to say that such an event would not change people;s attitude toward those bones?
You say such things were going on for millennia. Can you show me where it’s recorded in Scripture that such an event happened again (and again)?
I suppose I could. Not on this thread, though. 😃
Did Jesus or the Apostles use dead bones to resuscitate the dead?
Well, Jesus bones were not available ;), but the Apostle’s bones, indeed, and still are today.
A relic of St. Thomas was recently here in this area, and many healings occurred when people went to the service, praying in faith. God’s grace works in mysterious ways. What makes you think a dry bone is beyond His grace?
moondweller;5993488:
Code:
 Where is it recorded that Jesus or any of the Apostles venerated dead body parts?
this seems like a silly question, Moon. they made pilgirimages to sacred places, such as the Mt of transfiguration. Did you think they were in those places by chance?
Even under the Law of Moses the one who touched a dead person was considered unclean
and had to go through the rituals.Num 19:11 'The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days."

In that case, I think you answered your own question.
True Christianity is not at all about the dead but the living. Our faith is not at all about dead things
but life eternal in the risen Christ.

Moon, this may be difficult for you to understand, but the healing grace of God is not “dead”, it is very much alive. God is able to work miracles through all kinds of physical objects. I find it odd that you would have a problem with this.

God created us as sensory beings, and He works through our senses to help us understand His grace.

You did not answer my question.
 
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Yes, this is true for *experiential/practical* sanctification.  The believer's walk by faith while still on this earth in these yet unredeemed (non-glorified) bodies.  No problem there.  All the exhortations in the Epistles to live holy lives are addressed to our lives here and now, for Christ's sake.
What does that mean, “for Christ’s sake”? What does He need from us?

If we are already pure, why engage in any "practical sanctification? Are you saying that our sanctification is impractical (declared), so more work needs to be done for Christ sake!
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The other aspect of sanctification as revealed in the Scriptures is having been positionally sanctified, once for all, in the risen Christ at the time of faith:Acts 26:18 ".*..to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins* and an inheritance among those who **have been sanctified by faith in Me**.'
I am afraid I am missing your point here? Are you saying the purpose of practical sanctification is evangelistic?
1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,…”

Heb 10:10 By “…this will we have been sanctified (how?) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).(1)
Yes, I think this is a very important distinction that is often missed.
Based on what’s revealed in Scripture about us who have been sanctified in the risen Christ no purgatory is necessary. (2) For this reason purgatory is not, can not, will not be found in the Scriptures. Based on what’s revealed in them purgatory is an illogical conclusion.
Yes, this thread has given me a completely fresh understanding of how you see yourself in Christ, with no dross!

It does make sense that a person with no dross would need no purifying fire. ::bounce:
 
Dude, you just got through saying:

“No, those now sanctified in Christ, having been perfected for all time by one offering, are never called “sinners” in Scripture, but “saints” (lit. holy ones; see 1 Cor. 1:2 above).”

Now are you “perfect” or not? Are you a “sinner” or not? You are trying to have it both ways, and that ain’t gonna fly.
Are you implying that saints have never sinned?
 
Right here:

Originally Posted by guanophore
I have learned two important things about this on this threat. Moon is identified with the Risen Christ,** in whom there is no imperfection**, and therefore, is instantly ready to enter heaven.

Quote:
[SIGN]Originally Posted by moondweller
This is true. [/SIGN]
Well, wait, there is the other important thing. Moon believes it is permitted for unclean things to enter heaven NOW, but that there will be a future time when the heavens and earth are remade that this will not happen.

Besides, none of that matters, because Moon’s sins can no longer keep him out of heaven, or make him unclean in any way.
 
Well, wait, there is the other important thing. Moon believes it is permitted for unclean things to enter heaven NOW, but that there will be a future time when the heavens and earth are remade that this will not happen.

Besides, none of that matters, because Moon’s sins can no longer keep him out of heaven, or make him unclean in any way.
“Humor. I love it”
  • Commader Data - Star Trelk VII
 
Well, wait, there is the other important thing. Moon believes it is permitted for unclean things to enter heaven NOW, but that there will be a future time when the heavens and earth are remade that this will not happen.

Besides, none of that matters, because Moon’s sins can no longer keep him out of heaven, or make him unclean in any way.
Is that part of this mystifying, non-Scriptural “positional sanctification” that he’s now proposing?

Does anyone know the Greek for “positional sanctification”? 😛
 
Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.And please, no nonsense about someone being saved from falling into a hole before they fell into it. That’s called rationalizing. :rolleyes:
And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

Before Jesus was conceived Mary had already found favour with God. ’ Hail, Full of Grace’ was what the Angel of the Lord said to her. Jesus did not need to ‘save her’ after he was born, he had already done so.
 
Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.And please, no nonsense about someone being saved from falling into a hole before they fell into it. That’s called rationalizing. :rolleyes:
So at what point did she go from “imperfect” to “perfect”, and how do you know?
 
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