Purgatory

[Zooey]

Louemma:

Look at it this way. Suppose you had a rule that only family members could come in your house, period, no exceptions. Now, your son was out playing in the mud in the back yard. He is covered with mud from head to toe, he is soooooo covered with mud that even the insides of his clothes are muddy. When dinner time comes around he comes to the door to enter the house. He is a family member. You want him in the house. He wants to be in the house. But you would really like to rinse the mud off him before he tracks it through the house. So you say, “wait on the porch for just a minute” You fetch some water and rinse him off, wrap him in a towel and carry him into the house and upstairs to the bathtub.

That is a very poor example of what purgatory is like. It isn’t a “second chance” it isn’t an “in between” place. The child doesn’t have to be “forgiven” before he is let in the house. He just needs a little cleaning up.

Here is a text that might help:

I Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth therupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abid which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Notice that even if the man’s work isn’t up to snuff, he will be save but his work will be burned up when it is tried in the fire. That is what happens in purgatory.

I love this analogy.

I do, too!!
That is just how I understand it!!

Louemma, you do not say what Christian tradition you are from, but as a Methodist, I find that purgatory is as close to John Wesley’s teaching of Entire Sanctification as I have ever found…The 2 seem to me, to be simply different ways of stating the same truth.

God bless.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma,

You are unable to understand the concept because you have a different understanding of salvation.

You are looking at it from a legal standpoint.

We look at it from the standpoint of a divorce from the family of God that Jesus repaired.

He made it possible to obtain heaven, but only by abiding in Him, and Him in us. He transforms us into someone worthy of the Father. We are incapable of pleasing Him.

Our “works” as you call them, are attempts at mortifying the body and removing all attachments to worldly things and tendencies that are displeasing to God. And the more it hurts, the better it is for our souls. God fills up the void.

When we pass this life, God will be looking at all that resembles His Son. Anything else will be burnt to nothing in His Love. All that is not of God (Jesus, that is), will be “burned away”. The “burning away” is the concept of purgatory. All that will survive is what comes from Christ Himself. That is why it is so important to do His Will.

I know this sounds much more difficult than your Protestant upbringing has taught you. But, quite frankly, the difficulties of life only make sense in the light of Catholic teaching.

Thank You for this information.To clarify a misunderstanding you have
Where did you come up with the part of your post where I mentioned “WORKS?”
Everyone who has an understanding of Salvation knows that "Works do not get us into heaven.
Someone latches on to what they assume. All that are in the Protestant upbringing do not believe as what you have assumed in your post.Let me remind you of this fact.
Jesus despised religion,did he not?It causes a divide.To assume that I don’t understand the concept of salvation because I’m not Catholic is wrong.
There is only One God,One Son and the Holy Spirit,all working together in perfect accordance with one another.
The same Holy Spirit that draws you to Christ is not discriminating when he,meaning the Holy Spirit will even draw the lowly Protestant to Christ.
Let’s not forget that the discussion on Purgatory is not a salvation issue.Salvation can only be obtained in this life through Jesus Christ.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma-

I appreciate your honest interest in this doctrine. If you don’t mind doing a bit of reading, I think you’ll find the following helpful:

Articles on Purgatory

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Purgatory
By Rev. William G. Most
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204chap.asp

**PURGATORY IN ALL BUT NAME **
By W. ROBERT ANFILL
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Purgatory? Where Is That in the Bible?
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp

---

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspectiveby Victor R. Claveau
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2033423/posts

How to Argue the Existence of Purgatory
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
by James Akin
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

Thank You and I will read up on the links you attached.

 

[Louemma]

Thanks all for your info.
I will study into Purgatory.I already had the general ideal of the purpose of purgatory.Something like"As Gold Refined in the Fire"
Now when one accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior this by no means is a ticket to sin.Sadly some mistake in thinking if they are saved they can sin over and over,never repenting from the heart and get forgiveness for willful sin.
Purgatory makes since and I thought it all along or I would not be searching more about purgatory.With a Baptist upbringing does not always mean that one can’t read the word of God to know whether certain teachings are true.The Holy Spirit will lead us to the truth,right?
I just wanted to hear others view on purgatory,especially the Catholic because there is not one,besides a Catholic that even believes this place exists,but I do or I would have never ask:thumbsup:

 

[JRKH]

Thank You for this information.To clarify a misunderstanding you have
Where did you come up with the part of your post where I mentioned “WORKS?”
Everyone who has an understanding of Salvation knows that "Works do not get us into heaven.
Someone latches on to what they assume. All that are in the Protestant upbringing do not believe as what you have assumed in your post.Let me remind you of this fact.
Jesus despised religion,did he not?It causes a divide.To assume that I don’t understand the concept of salvation because I’m not Catholic is wrong.
There is only One God,One Son and the Holy Spirit,all working together in perfect accordance with one another.
The same Holy Spirit that draws you to Christ is not discriminating when he,meaning the Holy Spirit will even draw the lowly Protestant to Christ.
Let’s not forget that the discussion on Purgatory is not a salvation issue.Salvation can only be obtained in this life through Jesus Christ.

Louemma,
If I amy interject here, I don’t think that ceil-1 was trying to “attack you” in any way. Clearly you are right in saying that we sometimes make assumptions that perhaps we should not, but at the same time I hop you remember that folks here have answered these questions many times from different noncatholic christians and certain there are certain commonalities that come up. I’m sure that is what he meant when he referenced the “protestant” upbringing.

Also I think that if you go back and read what ceil posted, you will see that he agrees that works cannot get up into heaven. However, works, that is our efforts to conform ourselves to Christ and to act in a way befittting a disciple, are a critical part of aour salvic journey. Look carefully at the Gospels and note how many times Jesus tells His disciples to “go” and “do” things. These are “works” as we view them, but not works of “the Law”, rather they are works “of Love”.

As to christ despising religion I would have to ask you what you mean by “religion” and why do you think Christ despises it?

Peace
James

 

[VociMike]

…especially the Catholic because there is not one,besides a Catholic that even believes this place exists,but I do or I would have never ask:thumbsup:

Just to clarify a bit, the Church only teaches that purgagory is a process. She does not say whether or not this process involves a “place” or involves “time”. These concepts are just something that a lot of people use in trying to understand and/or explain the process of God’s final purification of those who are saved when they die, but are still not free from all sin and attachment to sin.

 

[JRKH]

Just to clarify a bit, the Church only teaches that purgagory is a process. She does not say whether or not this process involves a “place” or involves “time”. These concepts are just something that a lot of people use in trying to understand and/or explain the process of God’s final purification of those who are saved when they die, but are still not free from all sin and attachment to sin.

Yes, and the term, purgatory doesn’t help since it signifies a place. Since there is only “heaven” or “Hell” as destinations after death, the idea of Purgatory as a place (or destination) is foreign to non-catholics. However the idea of Purging is not so foreign

The process is Purging, or Purgation. Since this is done after (or at the instance of daeth) death, it can be done neither in heaven or in hell. Thus the term “Purgatory” is simply used to desribe “where” a person is during the period of “Purgation”.

Peace
james

 

[Louemma]

Louemma,
If I amy interject here, I don’t think that ceil-1 was trying to “attack you” in any way. Clearly you are right in saying that we sometimes make assumptions that perhaps we should not, but at the same time I hop you remember that folks here have answered these questions many times from different noncatholic christians and certain there are certain commonalities that come up. I’m sure that is what he meant when he referenced the “protestant” upbringing.

Also I think that if you go back and read what ceil posted, you will see that he agrees that works cannot get up into heaven. However, works, that is our efforts to conform ourselves to Christ and to act in a way befittting a disciple, are a critical part of aour salvic journey. Look carefully at the Gospels and note how many times Jesus tells His disciples to “go” and “do” things. These are “works” as we view them, but not works of “the Law”, rather they are works “of Love”.

As to christ despising religion I would have to ask you what you mean by “religion” and why do you think Christ despises it?

Peace
James

Then I must apologize but truly we are God’s children despite the different beliefs as long as the foundation is Jesus Christ.
I also realize you get your share of folks coming here that are not genuinely interested but coming here only to dispute your beliefs.
I came here seeking some answers to some questions because I think the questions are worth searching out the answer.
I suppose my being Protestant is clear but some here make it seem like a Protestant is an enemy of the Catholic or something to that effect:shrug:
To answer your question on why did Christ despise religion and why do I think he despised it?

The New Testament makes it very clear on how Jesus felt about the religious leaders in his day.The reason for this is they were to busy holding on to man made traditions that they didn’t even recognize the son of God but rather sought praise from Men.But you already know this.

 

[JRKH]

Then I must apologize but truly we are God’s children despite the different beliefs as long as the foundation is Jesus Christ.
I also realize you get your share of folks coming here that are not genuinely interested but coming here only to dispute your beliefs.
I came here seeking some answers to some questions because I think the questions are worth searching out the answer.
I suppose my being Protestant is clear but some here make it seem like a Protestant is an enemy of the Catholic or something to that effect:shrug:

No Problem.
Sometimes folks do come here with a real attitude. Not most - and certainly not you.
I think this thread is being very helpful to many people.

To answer your question on why did Christ despise religion and why do I think he despised it?

The New Testament makes it very clear on how Jesus felt about the religious leaders in his day.The reason for this is they were to busy holding on to man made traditions that they didn’t even recognize the son of God but rather sought praise from Men.But you already know this.

I beg to differ but I don’t think that the Gospels are clear on this at all.
You must look carefully at what you have said above. Yes we know how Jesus felt about how the “Religious Leaders” were conducting themselves but that is quite different from despising religion. If you look at Mt 23:2-3 you will notice that Jesus tells the people that they are to obey what the religious leaders teach. He tells them this in spite of how he feels about how the religious leaders are conducting themselves in their personal lives.

So here we see Jesus Great Love and respect for the Jewish “religion”, the Law, all based upon the two Great Commandments. We see Him telling the Rich Young man that he as done well by obeying the commandments. What Jesus detested was the emphasis that was placed on ritual instead of substance. Obedience to “Law” instead of Justice.

In fact we can see in the NT how Jesus partook in the Jewish relisious life, preaching in the synagoges and going up to Jerusalem for Passover etc. He even sending Peter to get the coins necessary to pay the temple tax.

So what Jesus came to do was not to do away with “religion” but to salvage it and place it firmly upon the right track - The track of Love before all things.

Peace
James

 

[Louemma]

No Problem.
Sometimes folks do come here with a real attitude. Not most - and certainly not you.
I think this thread is being very helpful to many people.

I beg to differ but I don’t think that the Gospels are clear on this at all.
You must look carefully at what you have said above. Yes we know how Jesus felt about how the “Religious Leaders” were conducting themselves but that is quite different from despising religion. If you look at Mt 23:2-3 you will notice that Jesus tells the people that they are to obey what the religious leaders teach. He tells them this in spite of how he feels about how the religious leaders are conducting themselves in their personal lives.

So here we see Jesus Great Love and respect for the Jewish “religion”, the Law, all based upon the two Great Commandments. We see Him telling the Rich Young man that he as done well by obeying the commandments. What Jesus detested was the emphasis that was placed on ritual instead of substance. Obedience to “Law” instead of Justice.

In fact we can see in the NT how Jesus partook in the Jewish relisious life, preaching in the synagoges and going up to Jerusalem for Passover etc. He even sending Peter to get the coins necessary to pay the temple tax.

So what Jesus came to do was not to do away with “religion” but to salvage it and place it firmly upon the right track - The track of Love before all things.

Peace
James

You are right, however Jesus despised the religious leader’s teachings.He warned the disciple of the leaven in the bread,meaning the corrupted Jewish religion.Man-made traditions taking place beside God’s law.Like the leaders condemning Jesus for healing on the Sabbath,like the religious condemning Jesus for eating with sinners and tax collectors.Or eating with unwashed hands and the list goes on and on.So from Jesus rebuking the religious leaders in his time we understand that any religion can be corrupted if Man adds to it,putting laws on the people that God never instructed.So yes,Jesus despised the corrupted religions,along with the leaders who desired praise from men instead of praise from God.Desiring high places to only be seen of men.
However Jesus is compassionate turning no one away who seeks answer such as Nicodemus:thumbsup:
This however is way off subject of Purgatory

 

[JRKH]

You are right, however Jesus despised the religious leader’s teachings.He warned the disciple of the leaven in the bread,meaning the corrupted Jewish religion.Man-made traditions taking place beside God’s law.Like the leaders condemning Jesus for healing on the Sabbath,like the religious condemning Jesus for eating with sinners and tax collectors.Or eating with unwashed hands and the list goes on and on.So from Jesus rebuking the religious leaders in his time we understand that any religion can be corrupted if Man adds to it,putting laws on the people that God never instructed.So yes,Jesus despised the corrupted religions,along with the leaders who desired praise from men instead of praise from God.Desiring high places to only be seen of men.
However Jesus is compassionate turning no one away who seeks answer such as Nicodemus:thumbsup:
This however is way off subject of Purgatory

I think it’s more accurate to say that he despised those who corrupted the religion rather than that he despised the religion.
Remember that He did tell the people, including his own disciples to obey what the pharisees taught - But NOT to act like they acted.
Clearly Jesus recognized the authority of the pharisees to teach otherwise He would not have said what He did.

But you are right - this is off the topic of purgatory.

Peace
James

 

[Louemma]

I think it’s more accurate to say that he despised those who corrupted the religion rather than that he despised the religion.
Remember that He did tell the people, including his own disciples to obey what the pharisees taught - But NOT to act like they acted.
Clearly Jesus recognized the authority of the pharisees to teach otherwise He would not have said what He did.

But you are right - this is off the topic of purgatory.

Peace
James

We agree