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adrift
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Luke 16:31]
What I am saying, is that you have failed miserably to convince me that purgatory is a real process
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adrift
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tweetymom
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What a silly question. there is none perfect except Jesus. Just for the repose of there soul
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adrift
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How rude of you. Jesus told us to be perfect and that no one would enter heaven unless they were. Purgatory is hope for the imperfect to be made perfect.
The repose of their soul? What do you mean by that! Repose means to lie at rest. Why would you pray for that?
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tweetymom
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Rude? Yoy need to wake up I wasn’t being rude, I am not perfect, maybe you are, I do not know you so how can I know? Every week the Priest says to pray for the repose of whoevers soul.
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MuddyRocker
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I’m not sure with YOUR understanding of the bible that it will make sense to you? But I leave the heavy stuff for he Holy Spirit.
If the bible is true, all of it has to be true.
** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **
** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
***Because of the way God Created us, with a mind, intellect and freewill, all SPIRITUAL GIFTS, one is able to know God, and know God’s Will for them [when pride does not block out understanding].
These three gifts have the precise purpose of allowing us to freely chose to demonistrate our love of and for God. [Which defines why we are Created Isaiah 43:7, 21] They also permit one to chose to do so completely, partially or not at all. Because God permits temptation to sin, in order that we MIGHT give evidence of our love for Him, man at times fails, and sins result.
By-pasing for the moment how sins are fogiven [Jn.20:20-23], even after God forgives our sins; there remains in Dvine Justice, a “payback factor for every committed sin”
For example [space limits require that I’m brief] I steal $10.00 from you. I Regret it, Confess it, promise not to do it again, and receive Absolution, and God forgives me. End of story? NO! I must pay you back! Before things are even.
Example two: Sam has an affair on his wife. He regrets it, Confesses, commits to not doing it again, so absolution is gratnted and again God forgives Sam his sin. Sam dies on the way home. End of story? NO! Sam has yet to make ammends for this sin.
So what happens?
**Lev.22: 21 *****“And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfil a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.”
Similarly, we too MUST BE PERFECT, and when necesary perfected, before being allowed access to heaven .Matt. Matt.5: 48] “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; 1 Pet.1: [15] but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Because is Perfect in every good way; God cannot and will not tolerate (name removed by moderator)erfection in His Heavenly Presence.
So before Sam can get into heaven, Sams soul must be made perfect. [Don’t jump the gun on me here] The is the precise reason God permits a place of repayment and purification. It goes beyond the sin themselves, directly to Divine justice.
Because God loves us He has ways for us to repay this debt while alive and even after death [because our souls live on]. In life, prayer, charitable works, and sacrifices all work towards repayment. Only God can track the balances. After death, others intercessory prayers can be applied for this purpose.
Because every sin has a latent effect, that varies in the nature and circumstances of the sin, God who BEING GOD MUST BE, HASTO BE completly and objectively fair and just, and therefore CANNOT [absolutely impossible] treat everyone the same who dies. Ca’t happen!/QU
Most of what you have here is correct. However, Sam can NEVER do anything to repay his debt before his death. Prayer, charitable works, and sacrifices are all works that are the evidence of faith as Paul and James would agree. And they are also living now like you will live then theology. But the only thing that can repay your debt in this life is the sacrifice that Jesus made. And added to that, Paul tells us that on “that” day we will all be changed in an instant, that is when we will be made perfect for entry into heaven. As far as your definition of divine justice, I just say that sin has consequences. For instance, Adam and Eve were forgiven by God for their sin but were still removed from the garden. But I suppose that is really two sides of the same coin. With all that has been said on both sides, I see and understand the scriptures you point out. Still I do not see that as reference to purgatory?
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adrift
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Yes you were rude to say my question was silly. :tsktsk: To say I need to wake up is also rude. The priest believes in purgatory. If you don’t, there is no point in praying for anyone who dies.
I am not perfect that is why I am glad there IS a purgatory. Jesus said unless you are perfect you will not enter heaven. Purgatory is what purges us and makes us perfect.
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adrift
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Bill_Pick
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tweetymom
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Bill_Pick
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rinnie
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Hi Tweets, I got a honest question for you. Just think about it okay, and then answer me honestly. You do not have to agree with purgatory I understand that, And in fairness to you and others who really don’t understand it I can see where you are comming from.
Now Honesty time okay. Think about this for while before you respond maybe all day today.
Lets say we die right now, Are we perfect in Christ yet? We agree possibly but more than likely not. Now purgatory is for People us who die right now, didn’t confess or repent. Now Jesus judges them right there on the spot. Now he says okay you are forgiven but you must be totally cleansed from that sin. Thats what we call repentance okay. Now can you see why we believe that this process must be completed before we enter heaven?
Like here when we repent and confess that is really the easy part. Now comes the hard part to QUIT the sin first. Now we quit the sin, but the desire of that sin still lingers do you agree. Like say drinking, you quit, have been clean for say 10 years but the desire remains. THe more you quit drinking the less stronger that desire becomes. Eventually that desire will become weak, very weak, and then it may take until that last breath on earth but you did it, you were cleansed from the sin. You beat it, Do you see what I am saying. You still need that cleansing time, and its God who shows you why. Does that makes sense to you.
Well see that cleansing time has a reason to it. Do you agree. Being forgiven, is just not enough, you must fix the problem lets say. Do you agree?
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PJM
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One assumes that is becasue the word “purgatory” does not appear in the bible. Short of that, much clear and compelling evidence has been presented. Neither do Pope, Catholic, Luther, Calvin, Smith or the name of your church. Yet they are all real.
Friend, please don’t balme us for your obstanence, for your lack of faith and lack of understanding that God by His very nature, has to be JUST and Fair. That Purgatory is another manefestation of God’s love for us, not a penalty.
God allows us to know truh and still deny it.
May God bless you,
Pat
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tweetymom
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No dear lady I do not agree. When I accepted Jesus into my heart when I was 38 I was cleansed at that moment. The hard part is to never sin again, which I have not done always. I am cleanesed everytime I ask forgiveness. Jesus promised eternal life not purgatory. So cleansing comes everytime I ask forgiveness. I am not against in what you believe and if it is good for you, then God Bless.
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rinnie
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Then why are we disagreeing here tweets. You said that you are cleansed, which means you are wiped clean of the sin correct? THen if you are wiped clean of that sin forever, then how can you repeat it? To be free from that sin entirely do we not have to quit it entiretly?
I agree tweety that yes when we accept Jesus confess our sin we CAN be forgiven. But does it state anywhere in the bible that we can confess without repenting? I can’t find it tweety. Confess and repent go together.
ANd you are correct Jesus did promise eternal life, but didn’t he say we had to do certain things to be admitted into eternal life. And did he not say we had to be completely free from sin to enter eternal life IN HEAVEN?
While I agree without him it was not possible, but did he or did he not give us some commandments to follow? Or did he say sin all you want just make sure you confess, then sin again, but don;t forget confess?
Or did he indeed say that you must be cleansed from the desire to sin completely before you can enter the gates of heaven.
Now tell me this tweets. Read this scripture now, and tell me if purgatory would not indeed make a little bit of sense to you.
2 Macc. 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again it would have benn superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. BUT if he was looking for a splendid reward that is laid up for those wh FALL ASLEEP in godliness it was a holdy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead and they might be delivered from thier sin.
THen 1 Cor 3:13-15 If any mans work is burned up, he will SUFFER LOSS though he himself will be save but only through the fire.
Now tweets where is that fire then, Its either purgatory or hell. BUt how can you be saved from the fire of hell, Jesus says no.
Now here is a even better one.
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righeous and the unrighteous that he might bring us to God, being put to death but made alive in the spirit in which he went and preached to the spriits in Prison who FOREMERLY DID NOT OBEY. Pet. 3:18-20
Now Tweey hell is eternal separation from Christ. I am sure we agree with that. Then were is the place will the spirits were held that formerly did not obey.
Now are you saying tweety that we have to confess that sin in order to get into heaven, or do we have to be completely cleansed from the sin to enter heaven? And if we are completely cleansed here then why do we repeat the sin? And if we repeat the sin are we going to hell then?
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rinnie
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And for the person who wanted to know who makes atonement for our sin, I don’t remember who it was. There is you answer in the previous post.
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Monte1945
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One goes to a Baptist Church… one puts in some money in the basket when
the offering is asked …
That same person, asks the church members/ministers to pray for her father’s illness…
Is this the same? Is she paying for the prayers?
When one asks the Priests of the Catholic Church to pray for someone, and they
donate money… the money is for the cost of the items used… candles etc.
the expected payment is five dollars or less…
Do you expect anyone to believe that one can actually pay for God’s Blessings?
I don’t know of any catholic who does either…
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tweetymom
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Whatever you put in the basket at a Baptist Church is not for prayers it is for tithes.
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tweetymom
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With due respect, when I was saved and accepted Jesus in my heart, I was given a new life and infilled with the Holy Spirit. Now of course I am going to slip and do those things I shouldn’t. I ask for forgiveness and I am forgiven. All you that advocate for purgatory have a gloomy outlook. Mine is beautiful.
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Monte1945
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Then, what ever Jesus said… and is written in the scriptures is for all of us… yes?
Then that means you accept his mother as your mother… as he meant “all of us”
when he said to John… “behold thy mother”…
Yes?
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