Purgatory......

[KathleenGee]

St. Paul said we must go through the fire to enter heaven…there can be no presence of sin to carry in there…

The souls in purgatory see God, their one desire…and ascent towards Him…

I am not into this thinking, saved, like you are saved at 30, and then backslide at 80, which I have seen former Christians become secular and have no faith—I do hospice.

I cannot believe you want to keep sinning, or rather, do not bother to refine your conscience and constantly seek to love God more–and then die and go straight into His arms…I don’t believe if you willfully want to keep sinning and thinking this cliche that I believe in the Lord so I am saved…

It contradicts the Lord who says only those who persevere to the end are saved…many are called but few are chosen…I am reading the life of St. francis again, and his testimony has so much a greater witness to me now, how much I have experienced of the world, and again, need to renounce all those that keep me from being with Him and possessing Him, and enjoying the inner freedom of Jesus Christ…a great contradiction to the Prosperity Gospel.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

In view of your response in reference to purgatory, I have to ask what you would do if you lived in an area where there were no Orthodox Churches? Would you attend a Catholic Church instead?

The differences in the Eucharist are optional for RCC. Depending on the Mass at my particular Church, we receive both. When there is a shortage of Eucharistic ministers, we only receive the body. (Our priest is recovering from back surgery and has trouble standing without a cane for even short periods of time.)

Still reading through the other thread and thanks again for your explanations. We’re liable to take Truth Seeker’s thread to a new high for them.

***I was not aware of the optional offering of the body and blood in the Eucharist of the RCC.

I gotta agree with SMM that it’s better to stick with what the unified Church did for the first 1053 years though.

Both RC and Protestant Churches have invited the EO to partake in communion under various circumstances - but our Church does not recommend this if we can reach an Orthodox Church.

If we cannot reach an Orthodox Church - I would probably go to an Anglican Church (The head of that Church is Queen Elizabeth II - and her husband is Greek Orthodox - and so this is approved by our Church). I might also go to a Byzantine Rite Catholic Church.

What is the Truth Seekers thread, and why would we take it to new heights???***

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

***I was not aware of the optional offering of the body and blood in the Eucharist of the RCC.

I gotta agree with SMM that it’s better to stick with what the unified Church did for the first 1053 years though.

Both RC and Protestant Churches have invited the EO to partake in communion under various circumstances - but our Church does not recommend this if we can reach an Orthodox Church.

If we cannot reach an Orthodox Church - I would probably go to an Anglican Church (The head of that Church is Queen Elizabeth II - and her husband is Greek Orthodox - and so this is approved by our Church). I might also go to a Byzantine Rite Catholic Church.

What is the Truth Seekers thread, and why would we take it to new heights???***

I was teasing Truth Seeker, who started this thread and many others when they apparently did not like the responses they received through the various threads. The responses, those that did respond, remain the same but the amount of posters has dwindled, thus the threads die out rather quickly…

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

St. Paul said we must go through the fire to enter heaven…there can be no presence of sin to carry in there…

***No he didn’t. It is clear that he was referring to the Final Judgement - where the eternal fire of Hell will destroy all bad works (or sin) - but will NOT destroy the condemned soul who will suffer in fire forever. There is no temporary fire which purifies in Purgatory.

When God forgives sin, he does so absolutely completely and then forgets the sin.***

The souls in purgatory see God, their one desire…and ascent towards Him…

***No they don’t. Some souls abide until Final Judgement in the many abodes of Heaven and Hell. Some rest in the presence of God’s Divine Light - and some are tormented in Darkness or by the eternal uncreated fire of damnation.

The Bible is clear that no soul will see the face of God - until after the Final Judgement and Theosis or deification of the soul is achieved.***

I am not into this thinking, saved, like you are saved at 30, and then backslide at 80, which I have seen former Christians become secular and have no faith—I do hospice.

The EOC does not teach this. We believe in constant efforts towards Salvation and Theosis.

I cannot believe you want to keep sinning, or rather, do not bother to refine your conscience and constantly seek to love God more–and then die and go straight into His arms…I don’t believe if you willfully want to keep sinning and thinking this cliche that I believe in the Lord so I am saved…

The EOC does not teach this. We believe sincere repentance is necessary wherever, and whenever sin is present in our lives.

It contradicts the Lord who says only those who persevere to the end are saved…many are called but few are chosen…I am reading the life of St. francis again, and his testimony has so much a greater witness to me now, how much I have experienced of the world, and again, need to renounce all those that keep me from being with Him and possessing Him, and enjoying the inner freedom of Jesus Christ…a great contradiction to the Prosperity Gospel.

The EOC is not a protestant Church, and we do not teach or believe in the so called Prosperity Gospel.

 

[josie_L]

***Well, I do think that the doctrine of Purgatory has such an impact on salvation - because it goes directly to the issue of the nature of Divine Mercy and Forgiveness - both central to salvation of souls. Must the soul be perfected to be saved (RCC), or is Gods forgiveness perfect and final and Omnipotent in the face of any sin (EOC)?

I also think differences in the Eucharist (body and blood - EOC) vs. (body only - RCC) could well impact upon salvation as we know the sacrament of communion is fundamental to salvation also. We both believe in transubstantiation - but we partake of both body and blood - you guys don’t.

There might be other areas of impact on salvation too.***

You are wrong in stating that the eucharist for Catholics only contains the body, it is in fact the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ present in the bread, here are a few commentaries from CAF posters pertaining to this topic:

Catholics do believe because the Catholic Church teaches that what Christ declared is true, He is fully, truly, really, sacramentally present in His whole entire undivided Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity under both the form of the consecrated bread, the host, and of the consecrated wine, the Precious Blood. The direction to “take and eat” and “take and drink” was given by Christ to the apostles specifically at the Last Supper, so it is essential for the Eucharistic sacrifice to be valid that the priest consume both. The laity may receive under both or either forms, depending on local practice. There have been times where discipline about reception, including frequency, which form, etc. have been different, but laity have always been able to receive the host. Even when reception of the precious Blood was not the general practice every Sunday, it was offered for occasions such as weddings or first communions.

and

I wondered about this same issue. It turns out that it’s largely because of 1 Corinthians 11:27: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.”

As for Christ’s words, the Bread is His Body, but also His Blood, His Soul and His Divinity; the Wine is His Blood, but also His Body, His Soul and His Divinity.

The Eucharistic Host is all of these things, but also represents His Body particularly (since it appears vaguely fleshlike), and the species of Wine represents His Blood because it appears vaguely bloody. By separating them, we recall His Passion.

At every Mass, communicants receive under both species either directly or indirectly. Directly, by receiving both, or indirectly, because the priest receives both, and we’re bound together through either. And the celebrant does receive under both species at every Mass.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=395915

 

[schaick]

It is an event, a final event that take place outside of heaven. Notice it says “he will suffer loss” and he “will be saved” and it will be “as through fire”. An excellent description of a cleansing fire.
:
That;s not what the word of God says " And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment"
Luke 23

Heaven was not opened until Christ ascended into heaven 40 days after the resurrection.

Eph 4:8"when he ascended on high he led a host of captives"

The thief on the cross went to the abode of the dead with the "spirits in prison ( 1 Peter 3:19)

THis quote simply shows that early christians believed in a place between heaven and hell. This “place” we now call purgatory which means a place of purification

The following verse is not about the robber but Jesus:

1 Peter 3

18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Sleep:

1 Thessalonians 4

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

 

[josie_L]

***Well, I do think that the doctrine of Purgatory has such an impact on salvation - because it goes directly to the issue of the nature of Divine Mercy and Forgiveness - both central to salvation of souls. Must the soul be perfected to be saved (RCC), or is Gods forgiveness perfect and final and Omnipotent in the face of any sin (EOC)?

I also think differences in the Eucharist (body and blood - EOC) vs. (body only - RCC) could well impact upon salvation as we know the sacrament of communion is fundamental to salvation also. We both believe in transubstantiation - but we partake of both body and blood - you guys don’t.

There might be other areas of impact on salvation too.***

I just wanted to mention this for those of you who are not aware of the Lanciano Miracle:

Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.

The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano.

When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood.

Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral.

Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world.

At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically.

Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena.

Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of “miraculous flesh and blood.” He presented his findings on March 4, 1971.

His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB.

Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that “as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue.”

In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that “the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions.”

“The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%,” Linoli said.

Linoli’s analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered.

Linoli’s report was published in “Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori” in 1971.

In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor’s conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.

The extract of the scientific research of WHO’s medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science’s inability to explain the phenomenon.

zenit.org/article-12933?l=english

 

[josie_L]

Well, I do think that the doctrine of Purgatory has such an impact on salvation - because it goes directly to the issue of the nature of Divine Mercy and Forgiveness - both central to salvation of souls. Must the soul be perfected to be saved (RCC), or is Gods forgiveness perfect and final and Omnipotent in the face of any sin (EOC)?

This seems a very odd thing to say “must the soul be perfected to be saved” as we Catholics don’t believe you must be perfected to be saved (although we are to seek being holy while we are on earth) but rather purified of all sin to get into Heaven, i.e., if I should die tomorrow with sin upon my soul (not the kind that would send me to Hell obviously) then I am already saved by being in purgatory because there’s only one place I can go after the purging of my soul: Heaven.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

You are wrong in stating that the eucharist for Catholics only contains the body, it is in fact the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ present in the bread, here are a few commentaries from CAF posters pertaining to this topic:

**Well, we Eastern Orthodox disagree with the Roman Catholic Church on this issue. The Ancient Church NEVER approved of the RCC practice, and we EO still do not… it was a Roman innovation and is in error. The Priest does not celebrate The Eucharist in isolation, without a congregation - and the fact he partakes of both bread and wine or body and blood is great for him, but the congregation cannot absorb The Eucharist by that act of the Priest, or by some mysterious osmosis process.

Nowhere in the Bible does any Apostle advocate the Eucharist consisting of either the body OR the blood - the quote provided here about insincere participation in the Eucharist does NOT provide the faithful or the Church with an either/ or option. It merely recognises the distinct nature of the body and the blood.

Christ Himself offered both bread AND wine at the Last Supper (not Bread or Wine), and specifically exhorted us to do the very same. He subsequently offered both His Body and His Blood as the supreme sacrifice, and ransom for the salvation of mankind. He did not offer one or the other - but BOTH.**

Here is what we teach about The Eucharist:

***The Holy Eucharist is the oldest experience of Christian Worship as well as the most distinctive. Eucharist comes from the Greek word which means thanksgiving. In a particular sense, the word describes the most important form of the Church’s attitude toward all of life. The origin of the Eucharist is traced to the Last Supper at which Christ instructed His disciples to offer bread and wine in His memory. The Eucharist is the most distinctive event of Orthodox worship because in it the Church gathers to remember and celebrate the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ and, thereby, to participate in the mystery of Salvation.

---

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

This seems a very odd thing to say “must the soul be perfected to be saved” as we Catholics don’t believe you must be perfected to be saved (although we are to seek being holy while we are on earth) but rather purified of all sin to get into Heaven, i.e., if I should die tomorrow with sin upon my soul (not the kind that would send me to Hell obviously) then I am already saved by being in purgatory because there’s only one place I can go after the purging of my soul: Heaven.

**Well, the EOC does not accept this innovation or this teaching of the RCC.

“Purification” of the soul is NOT necessary to get into Heaven. Forgiveness of a flawed, imperfect impure soul IS necessary to get to Heaven.

The only conclusion we EO can reach, is that if Catholics in Purgatory are already forgiven, and are destined for Heaven once they are “purified” - then our God must be different to yours - because when our God forgives, His Mercy & Grace & Forgiveness are perfect and sufficient for entry into his presence and into Heaven. For some this happens at Particular Judgement, and for others at Final Judgement. We do not delineate between venial and mortal sins in the same way - sin is sin - repentance is repentance - and forgiveness is forgiveness. It’s not conditional on purification or merit.

We think this RC teaching is fanciful, and absurd. It also implies to believers that salvation during earthly life is not imperitive, because you get a second go in Purgatory.

This is just wrong.**

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**Sorry Schaik,

None of the quotes you provide even come close to establishing the existence of a distinct third place - neither Heaven or Hell.

Actually, these describe various abodes orf Heaven and Hell - there is NO third place of “purification”.

And whilst some Ancient Church members did have this opinion, such a teaching was NEVER adopted by the pre-schism Church - on the contrary, it was specifically repudiated as error by the pre-schism consensus. Actually, because of Eastern Orthodox objections, it took the RCC about another 500 years after schism to actually define the teaching of Purgatory.

This was greeted with surprise and shock by the rest of the Church in the East.**

 

[adstrinity]

Catholics do not believe God’s forgiveness is conditional on anything but repentance. He can’t forgive if you don’t admit you’re sorry.

Alright, if we get into Heaven because we are forgiven, but not purified or made perfect, does that mean we still sin in Heaven? This sounds like VERY Protestant theology.

 

[josie_L]

Catholics do not believe God’s forgiveness is conditional on anything but repentance. He can’t forgive if you don’t admit you’re sorry.

Alright, if we get into Heaven because we are forgiven, but not purified or made perfect, does that mean we still sin in Heaven? This sounds like VERY Protestant theology.

Yes, it has a Lutheran connotation to it, i.e., we are covered in Christ’s righteousness rather than infused by it as Catholics believe.

 

[josie_L]

Well, the EOC does not accept this innovation or this teaching of the RCC.
Well, the CC does not accept the opinions of the EOC regarding purgatory.

“Purification” of the soul is NOT necessary to get into Heaven. Forgiveness of a flawed, imperfect impure soul IS necessary to get to Heaven.

I do not care if you think it’s wrong, and quite frankly your Orthodox/reformed interpretation of the afterlife is just that an interpretation (there is no uniform teaching with regard to the afterlife within the Orthodox community).

 

[josie_L]

Nowhere in the Bible does any Apostle advocate the Eucharist consisting of either the body OR the blood - the quote provided here about insincere participation in the Eucharist does NOT provide the faithful or the Church with an either/ or option. It merely recognises the distinct nature of the body and the blood.

1 Corinthians 11:27: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.”

I never said what you’re implying, furthermore, as per 1 Corinthians 11:27, consecrated bread contains both the body and blood of our Lord likewise for the consecrated wine. And here’s something else that should get you thinking, Luke 24:30-35:

" And it happened that, while he (Jesus) was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him (i.e., his real presence in the bread) but he vanished from their sight. . . . . . . . Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread."

Christ Himself offered both bread AND wine at the Last Supper (not Bread or Wine), and specifically exhorted us to do the very same. He subsequently offered both His Body and His Blood as the supreme sacrifice, and ransom for the salvation of mankind. He did not offer one or the other - but BOTH.

We offer the bread and wine at Mass but both contain the body and blood of Jesus, i.e, all of Jesus is present under either species.

The Holy Eucharist is the oldest experience of Christian Worship as well as the most distinctive. Eucharist comes from the Greek word which means thanksgiving. In a particular sense, the word describes the most important form of the Church’s attitude toward all of life. The origin of the Eucharist is traced to the Last Supper at which Christ instructed His disciples to offer bread and wine in His memory. The Eucharist is the most distinctive event of Orthodox worship because in it the Church gathers to remember and celebrate the Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ and, thereby, to participate in the mystery of Salvation.

This is exactly what we teach too!!

 

[josie_L]

“Purification” of the soul is NOT necessary to get into Heaven. Forgiveness of a flawed, imperfect impure soul IS necessary to get to Heaven.

By the way, if a soul is in purgatory then ipso facto one is forgiven by God (I didn’t think it was necessary to clarify this but guessing from your reaction I should have).

 

[josie_L]

Did I not specify that we are supposed to make ourselves holy during our time on earth because as the Catholic Church teaches we are justified by faith and works or faith working in love, and those whose faith is dead, i.e., cannot be saved? Moreover, how flawed /imperfect or impure can a soul be in order to be forgiven by God? Because if the Orthodox don’t have an answer to this question, then you can imagine the errors that can come of people abusing this notion of God’s forgiveness and mercy without penance, i.e., purgation (paying to the last penny in prison as scripture says)?

This part of my post was malformed so let me rephrase, "Moreover, how flawed/imperfect or impure can a soul be without surpassing a limit of some sort? I say this because there are Protestants who think that because they are covered in the righteousness of Christ that no matter what their sins they will enter Heaven, i.e., what is the incentive to be holy here on Earth if God forgives as easily as that, i.e., without consequences/payment for the sins we committed?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This seems a very odd thing to say “must the soul be perfected to be saved” as we Catholics don’t believe you must be perfected to be saved (although we are to seek being holy while we are on earth) but rather purified of all sin to get into Heaven, i.e., if I should die tomorrow with sin upon my soul (not the kind that would send me to Hell obviously) then I am already saved by being in purgatory because there’s only one place I can go after the purging of my soul: Heaven.

Matt. 5: 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jn17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Col.1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2Tim.3:16 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[aspirant]

We reject the concept of an intermediate seperate place like RC Purgatory.

It’s not defined as a “place” in Catholic theology. It’s a purifying state.

 

[aspirant]

We do not teach purging or purification of the soul by a temporary fire after death.

It’s not actually defined as a “fire” in Catholic theology, either.

Orthodox St. Mark of Ephesus said: “But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.”

Mark of Ephesus considered this an argument against purgatory, but a Catholic would not. He was opposed to the term “fire” and the idea that cleansing occurs “in some place,” but neither of these is actually defined by the Council of Florence (or any other Catholic council) as part of Catholic teaching on purgatory.

“Purification” of the soul is NOT necessary to get into Heaven.

This statement disagrees as much with St. Mark of Ephesus as with the Catholic Church.

there is NO third place

The Catholic Church does not actually teach that there is. People may speak of it that way, and they are free to do so, but it’s not part of the official doctrine.