Purgatory......

[1beleevr]

:bible1:

Me too! The position of pope has always been by mere humans. As I remember, you objected to him being called father because of the call no man father. I don’t believe Jesus was saying that. I would also say that Paul didn’t either since he says he is father. What does Holy mean to you?

This is a Webster definition.

When we say Holy Father we are acknowledging the Pope being devoted entirely to God. We are called to be Holy people. You are called to be Holy.

My understanding of the word holy, is unblemished, pure, beyond reproach; in other words, perfect! Jesus told us that we were to be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy! But He also knows that our flesh is at war with God, and we could not be holy while in these bodies(including the pope) I strive daily to be holy and love philippianns 1:6, because it reminds me that God is not done with me yet! And for the record, I don’t object to catholics calling him Holy Father, just saying that I can’t bring myself to do it!

 

[adrift]

My understanding of the word holy, is unblemished, pure, beyond reproach; in other words, perfect! Jesus told us that we were to be holy as our Father in Heaven is holy! But He also knows that our flesh is at war with God, and we could not be holy while in these bodies(including the pope) I strive daily to be holy and love philippianns 1:6, because it reminds me that God is not done with me yet! And for the record, I don’t object to catholics calling him Holy Father, just saying that I can’t bring myself to do it!

I forgot the number one rule in discussion, define your terms.

We do not have a meeting of the mind on this definition. I believe that is one definition but not all the word means. Holy when used in conjunction with a human or thing means belonging to God. Holy Thursday does not have your definition. Holy Spirit does. Holy Water doesn’t. Holy Day refers to a day dedicated to God. Then there is Holy Oil and Holy Land. All these holys are references to belonging to God as when it is used for the Pope. I don’t care if you call him holy. I understand why you wouldn’t.

Using my understanding of holy you can see that we can be Holy that is we belong to God.
If I am understanding you right, you believe that the body is evil. I am not sure how you reconcile your view with the fact that Jesus was perfect before He died and He was born in the flesh?

 

[peary]

Nowhere in the CCC does it state that Purgatory is a ‘place’. It is a STATE of one’s soul after death, and those who experience it are already in the foyer of Heaven. In other words, a soul who is experiencing purgatory is on his or her way to Heaven. Purgatory is the “burning away” of all effects of sin on one’s soul. We don’t know the process; we haven’t a clue how it happens. Nevertheless, it is a real situation after death. Orthodox Jews also pray for those who have passed on. The Church has always retained this aspect in Her teachings.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

QUOTE=adrift;6388900]You are on a Catholic forum. If you cannot be respectful, then do not post here. Calling the Pope Mr. is disrespectful. I don’t believe in protestant preachers but I would never be so disrespectful as to not call them by the title they wish. If you do not wish to use our title, than don’t write ANYTHING. You are not acting in a loving way when you insult others.
Jesus said to the Apostles who sins you forgive are forgiven. This was giving them the power to forgive sins .Going straight to God is not supported by Scripture

Thank you for your admonishments, and for reminding me of where I am Calling anyone sir, or Mister, is a sign of respect.My father taught me at a young age that one does not always respect the person in authority, but respects the authority. In the military, we learned to call officers, or even higher ranking noncoms by their rank first, and then their last name. Some officers preferred to be called “Mister”. I totally understand most catholics devotion to their pope, but I cannot in loyalty to God, call him or refer to him as Holy Father; sorry. What has Mr. Ratzinger done to warrant that title? Got elected pope by a council of bishops and cardinals? And calling anyone sir or Mr. is not disrespectful, quite the contrary. I call my pastor by his first name, as he and I have a relationship which allows that. I am not in awe of him, and until the pope walks on water, he is just another mister who is in charge of the catholic church. And rest assured that I have the utmost respect and honor for [SIGN]ANY and all men of God,[/SIGN] until they prove me wrong! If I were to meet the pope, I would shake his hand, and say,“Pleased to meet you sir.”(No kissing the ring though)P.S. Do not admonish people about lack of charity(“you are not acting in aloving way”) unless you yourself show that charity!

Oh lB I gotta kiss you for this one. Then do you agree that the Pope is indeed a Man of God. And if you do agree that he IS INDEED a MAN OF GOD would a Man of God not be made Holy by God. Bingo!!! THE HOLY FATHER.!!!

Got another question for you, do you believe in the teachings of Peter. What happened Peter when he walked on water?

That ring lb is nothing special to you, and I can see your point. But I ask you to open your heart and use my eyes for one moment. That ring is just a ring granted. But that ring is a symbol the same as your ring is lB a symbol that unties you and your spouse to Christ. And that ring is blessed by the Holy Spirit, the same as my ring and my husbands rings are. But the Pope was chosen by God to be united to only him. To lead the Church and help us get into heaven by teachng us the word.

That ring means he is the leader of the Church and symbolizes his unity with God and God only and forsaking all others. Do you wear a ring lB to show the world that you to have been united to someone and will forsake all others???

 

[Bill_Pick]

None of my Bibles contains the Maccbees! And I am not confused about calling no one on earth Father. I know that we have fathers while we are here But what I do understand is that God is myHoly Father, not any mortal man!

I keep for getting you only have 3/4 of the Bible,Cathloic have all the Bible.

 

[rinnie]

lB got a question for you. Was Jesus not truly God and truly Man. Did God not give the power of the Holy Sprirt to a mortal? Did Jesus not exercise his power given to him by God as a human? Thats what I am asking?

ANd before you ask here it is my little love cat!!

Matt9:l-8 He entered a boat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;When Jesus saw their faith he said …your sins are forgiven… When the crowds saw this the wer struck we AWE and GLORIFIED GOD who HAD GIVEN AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

So what I am asking is if you believe that God gave the power to Jesus Christ, and you admit it was fully Man you cannot deny that he could give it to the Apostles who are fully human. AKA The Holy Father, and the Bishops and Priests in succession!!

 

[Javl]

Shalom Chevarim, To All:

1beleevr has given you his opinion and reason for not accepting or believing in calling the Pope “Holy Father”. I think he is entitled to his belief and opinion. We have given and explained our belief and reasons, as Catholics, for calling the Pope such. Let’s not try to force it down his throat. He has not tried to do the same to us.

Now let’s get back to the original subject of this thread. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[1beleevr]

I keep for getting you only have 3/4 of the Bible,Cathloic have all the Bible.

If you say so But I still haven’t heard of tobit or Judith!

 

[tweetymom]

Shalom Chevarim, To All:

1beleevr has given you his opinion and reason for not accepting or believing in calling the Pope “Holy Father”. I think he is entitled to his belief and opinion. We have given and explained our belief and reasons, as Catholics, for calling the Pope such. Let’s not try to force it down his throat. He has not tried to do the same to us.

Now let’s get back to the original subject of this thread. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

PPraise God!!!

 

[1beleevr]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Thank you for your admonishments, and for reminding me of where I am Calling anyone sir, or Mister, is a sign of respect.My father taught me at a young age that one does not always respect the person in authority, but respects the authority. In the military, we learned to call officers, or even higher ranking noncoms by their rank first, and then their last name. Some officers preferred to be called “Mister”. I totally understand most catholics devotion to their pope, but I cannot in loyalty to God, call him or refer to him as Holy Father; sorry. What has Mr. Ratzinger done to warrant that title? Got elected pope by a council of bishops and cardinals? And calling anyone sir or Mr. is not disrespectful, quite the contrary. I call my pastor by his first name, as he and I have a relationship which allows that. I am not in awe of him, and until the pope walks on water, he is just another mister who is in charge of the catholic church. And rest assured that I have the utmost respect and honor for [SIGN]ANY and all men of God,[/SIGN] until they prove me wrong! If I were to meet the pope, I would shake his hand, and say,“Pleased to meet you sir.”(No kissing the ring though)P.S. Do not admonish people about lack of charity(“you are not acting in aloving way”) unless you yourself show that charity!

Oh lB I gotta kiss you for this one. Then do you agree that the Pope is indeed a Man of God. And if you do agree that he IS INDEED a MAN OF GOD would a Man of God not be made Holy by God. Bingo!!! THE HOLY FATHER.!!!

Got another question for you, do you believe in the teachings of Peter. What happened Peter when he walked on water?

That ring lb is nothing special to you, and I can see your point. But I ask you to open your heart and use my eyes for one moment. That ring is just a ring granted. But that ring is a symbol the same as your ring is lB a symbol that unties you and your spouse to Christ. And that ring is blessed by the Holy Spirit, the same as my ring and my husbands rings are. But the Pope was chosen by God to be united to only him. To lead the Church and help us get into heaven by teachng us the word.

That ring means he is the leader of the Church and symbolizes his unity with God and God only and forsaking all others. Do you wear a ring lB to show the world that you to have been united to someone and will forsake all others???

So, using your logic, all men of God(pastors preachers, evangelists) could be called Holy Father as wellAnd you are right, his ring is no big deal to me. It is a symbol, which may or may not have been blessed by the Holy Spirit! He could probably do without it! I mean, I have heard some say that it is tantamount to idolatry! And when Peter walked on water, he was fine until he took his eyes off Jesus! He was suddenly aware of the storm; the wind and waves! His faith wavered, but Jesus lifted him up, and rescued him! Sounds like our lives, huh? We do just fine as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus. We can get out of that boat with confidence, knowing that He will protect us.

 

[1beleevr]

Shalom Chevarim, To All:

1beleevr has given you his opinion and reason for not accepting or believing in calling the Pope “Holy Father”. I think he is entitled to his belief and opinion. We have given and explained our belief and reasons, as Catholics, for calling the Pope such. Let’s not try to force it down his throat. He has not tried to do the same to us.

Now let’s get back to the original subject of this thread. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thank you And I do not try to ram it down anyone’s throat! The problem stemmed from catholic friends and coworkers, who blasted me for not calling the pope holy father! I would tell them that:1) he is not my holy father, and 2) I am not catholic. I guess I felt that because i had a difference of opinion, I was insulting them; which couldn’t be farther from the truth! Anyway, regarding purgatory, the battle has raged on and on, with neither side giving up or in. What I really believe is that all Christians agree that nothing unclean can enter Heaven! What the process is and how it works, we haven’t a clue; only God has the answers! So, we won’t know anything for sure until that day! What about those who have"fallen asleep", as Paul calls it? Don’t know the answer to that either We tend to speculate about many things, not being completely sure of anything really. And what became of all the money charged for indulgences back then?

 

[adrift]

That’s what I ask,“Relaesed from what?” And 1Corinthians 3:13-15 is a questionable scripture in support of purgatory Once again, what are the works Paul refers to?

The answer is?

I see Jesus saying that everything must be paid. Jesus wasn’t interested in worldly things. He was interested in the spiritual. You may have another answer and I am interested in hearing it. Mine is the attachment that we have for sin. We must be purged with fire as in 1 Corinthians 3 12-15. We must become perfect in order to be with God.

 

[1beleevr]

lB got a question for you. Was Jesus not truly God and truly Man. Did God not give the power of the Holy Sprirt to a mortal? Did Jesus not exercise his power given to him by God as a human? Thats what I am asking?

ANd before you ask here it is my little love cat!!

Matt9:l-8 He entered a boat;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;When Jesus saw their faith he said …your sins are forgiven… When the crowds saw this the wer struck we AWE and GLORIFIED GOD who HAD GIVEN AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

So what I am asking is if you believe that God gave the power to Jesus Christ, and you admit it was fully Man you cannot deny that he could give it to the Apostles who are fully human. AKA The Holy Father, and the Bishops and Priests in succession!!

Well of course I believe that Jesus was fully God and fully manAnd God, His Father, through the Holy Spirit, gave him the power to forgive sins.The disciples received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and Peter told the people to turn back to God for forgiveness of their sins, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit! So, they were still turning people towards God for forgiveness:thumbsup:By the way, how many scriptures actually document the apostles forgiving sins?

 

[1beleevr]

The answer is?

I see Jesus saying that everything must be paid. Jesus wasn’t interested in worldly things. He was interested in the spiritual. You may have another answer and I am interested in hearing it. Mine is the attachment that we have for sin. We must be purged with fire as in 1 Corinthians 3 12-15. We must become perfect in order to be with God.

And I know that our perfection has been His plan from the beginning! And I also know that we must be made perfect to enter the Kingdom! What I don’t know for sure is what “works” Paul is referring to, and what we are released from? When you read that verse Matthew 5:26-27, it is like He’s talking about going to court! And that before you can be absolved of your responsibility, you must pay up!

 

[Javl]

Thank you And I do not try to ram it down anyone’s throat! The problem stemmed from catholic friends and coworkers, who blasted me for not calling the pope holy father! I would tell them that:1) he is not my holy father, and 2) I am not catholic. I guess I felt that because i had a difference of opinion, I was insulting them; which couldn’t be farther from the truth! Anyway, regarding purgatory, the battle has raged on and on, with neither side giving up or in. What I really believe is that all Christians agree that nothing unclean can enter Heaven! What the process is and how it works, we haven’t a clue; only God has the answers! So, we won’t know anything for sure until that day! What about those who have"fallen asleep", as Paul calls it? Don’t know the answer to that either We tend to speculate about many things, not being completely sure of anything really. And what became of all the money charged for indulgences back then?

Sometimes it’s difficult to explain to some Catholics that there are Protestants, and just as difficult to explain to some Protestants that there are Catholics. Someday all will wake up. I know you and I are here to learn from each other, explain our beliefs and to correct and dispell distortions, lies, myths, etc.

As for the idea of Purgatory, it actually goes back to OT times. The majority of the Jews back then believed in a “holding place” where the soul went after death to await judgement by God. They knew that nothing unclean could enter heaven. Since some very pious men died in war, the people knew they were ritually unclean. But since they were fighting for God and for justice, etc. God would not deny them heaven. But how could they be purified? After much study, debate, and prayer, the answer was the “holding place” where they can be cleansed of their sins and be pure enough to enter heaven. This "holding place applied then to all who died. Flavius Josephus, a devout Jewish historian, describes this in the book “The Writings of Josephus”. Many ( if not all ) Jews of today believe in this “holding place” and pray for the souls of the dead, asking for God’s mercy. The Church has always taught about this “holding place” from the beginning, developing it into Purgatory. But since it is not dogma, we are free to accept or reject it.

As far as the money obtained from indulgences back then, it was used to support the crusade of the time ( and probably to pay off some loans and other debts too ).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[tweetymom]

Sometimes it’s difficult to explain to some Catholics that there are Protestants, and just as difficult to explain to some Protestants that there are Catholics. Someday all will wake up. I know you and I are here to learn from each other, explain our beliefs and to correct and dispell distortions, lies, myths, etc.

As for the idea of Purgatory, it actually goes back to OT times. The majority of the Jews back then believed in a “holding place” where the soul went after death to await judgement by God. They knew that nothing unclean could enter heaven. Since some very pious men died in war, the people knew they were ritually unclean. But since they were fighting for God and for justice, etc. God would not deny them heaven. But how could they be purified? After much study, debate, and prayer, the answer was the “holding place” where they can be cleansed of their sins and be pure enough to enter heaven. This "holding place applied then to all who died. Flavius Josephus, a devout Jewish historian, describes this in the book “The Writings of Josephus”. Many ( if not all ) Jews of today believe in this “holding place” and pray for the souls of the dead, asking for God’s mercy. The Church has always taught about this “holding place” from the beginning, developing it into Purgatory. But since it is not dogma, we are free to accept or reject it.

As far as the money obtained from indulgences back then, it was used to support the crusade of the time ( and probably to pay off some loans and other debts too ).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

If this is true then why are we raked over the coals because wo do not believe in purgatory? If you reject itas a Catholic we are called all sorts of names.

 

[Bill_Pick]

If you say so But I still haven’t heard of tobit or Judith!

Lets see what you need help with ,did you look in the OT…If that does not word please let me know

 

[Bill_Pick]

Lets see what you need help with ,did you look in the OT…If that does not word please let me know

PS I see what you are not seeing they are in the OT,Get a good Christian bible with the NT and the OT and read all the Bible you are just using 3/4 of the Bible,God give us the whole Bible to read not just 3/4,read all and see how smart you will be ,LOL

 

[1beleevr]

PS I see what you are not seeing they are in the OT,Get a good Christian bible with the NT and the OT and read all the Bible you are just using 3/4 of the Bible,God give us the whole Bible to read not just 3/4,read all and see how smart you will be ,LOL

So, off the top of your head, which Old Testament book would I find tobit, Judith and the Maccabees? And I only use the entire Bible! Didn’t you guys(catholics) only give the world the new Testament?

 

[T_More]

1beleever, you might want to look into the history of the LXX, if you haven’t already. The New Testament actually makes references to the books that Protestants have removed, such as Hebrews 11 that actually refer to 2 Maccabees chapter 7. This blew me away when I came to realize the bible I was using was incomplete.