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aspirant
Guest
This is what I keep wondering.
- Status
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
**Crikey Mate…
Does anyone here want to go crocodile hunting?
Maybe surfing?**
:coolinoff:
Does anyone here want to go crocodile hunting?
Maybe surfing?**
:coolinoff:
D
Daedelus76
Guest
aspirant;6184638:
I think it’s more likely because it conjures up Romanish images of people being tortured for thousands of years… the kind of thing that the Reformation rightly rejected.
Purgatory is mentioned in plenty of writings of saints and fathers, though, in the West- it wasn’t just the result of theological speculation. Ven. Bede in the 7th-8th century writes about an otherwordly journey of a monk named Drythelm - today we woud probably call that a “near-death experience”, the basic idea of purgatory was implicit in that, though (of course, the description of the paradisical scene he saw had differences with the Roman Catholic belief that heaven is an immediate experience of God, too).
I’ve met people, even candidates to the priesthood, who have never read the 39 Articles (one person was shocked, really shocked, when I read some of them to her- the tone is colored by the Reformed/humanist mindset of the time and has some harsh language too). They are mostly revered among evangelicals with a much more Reformed identity, and some of the conservatives in the global south who would like to see them become confessional. The high churchmen have always tended to resent them a bit, seeing them as political interference.he 39 Articles explicitly forbid the “Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory” and “Invocation of the Saints,” but I don’t remember if they forbid praying for the dead. It’s been a long while since I believed the 39 Articles. And many Anglicans, in my experience, never really read or believe them. Which may be why they’re willing to accept ambiguity.
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
**What do you think their view of the Orthodox teaching would be?
Genuinely interested.**
Genuinely interested.**
R
rinnie
Guest
Here is the thing. We as Catholic believe that the Church holds the fullness of the truth. It is taught in scripture.
Now Purgatory is dogma of the Church and we believe as Catholics it must be held in the faith.
We believe that dogma of the faith comes from Christ. So they are not open for debate and cannot be reversed.
We believe the Church can speak on behalf of Christ for they are in the same mindset.
1 Cor 2:16
Heb 13:8
Now Purgatory is dogma of the Church and we believe as Catholics it must be held in the faith.
We believe that dogma of the faith comes from Christ. So they are not open for debate and cannot be reversed.
We believe the Church can speak on behalf of Christ for they are in the same mindset.
1 Cor 2:16
Heb 13:8
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aspirant
Guest
The kind of thing Catholics don’t believe either…
I’ve met people, even candidates to the priesthood, who have never read the 39 Articles (one person was shocked, really shocked, when I read some of them to her- the tone is colored by the Reformed/humanist mindset of the time and has some harsh language too).
LOL. I grew up reading them from time to time. When my mother was coming along, they actually taught the 39 articles and catechism in confirmation classes, so she thought I should know them too.
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
Really???
B
BlueSapphire
Guest
Purgatory is also a place to repay a debt not paid while on Earth, hence it can be a type of prison.
The Parable of the Debtors
The Parable of the Debtors
Code:
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
The servant fell on his knees before him. "Be patient with me," he begged, "and I will pay back everything." The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denari. He grabbed him and began to choke him. "Pay back what you owe me," he demanded.
His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, "Be patient with me, and I will pay you back."
But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
Then the master called the servant in. "You wicked servant," he said. "I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" In anger his master turned him over to the jailers until he should pay back all he owed.
This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. -- Matthew 18:23-35
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
Really???
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BlueSapphire
Guest
The sin may be forgiven, but there is a also a punishment/satisfaction to be paid - either in this life or Purgatory!
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BlueSapphire
Guest
Padre Pio and Purgatory
"I see so many souls from Purgatory that they don’t frighten me any more’. ‘More souls of the dead than the living climb this mountain to attend my Masses and seek my prayers.’ (Padre Pio)
Padre Pio had a very special relationship with the Holy Souls…indeed such was the relationship that they were his frequent visitors…and led him to make the statements quoted above.
We must pray for the Souls in Purgatory. It is unbelievable, what they can do for our spiritual good, out of gratitude they have towards those on earth who remember to pray for them.’
Prayer of St. Gertrude for the Holy Souls
Eternal Father, I offer you the Most Precious Blood of your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with all the masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen."
"I see so many souls from Purgatory that they don’t frighten me any more’. ‘More souls of the dead than the living climb this mountain to attend my Masses and seek my prayers.’ (Padre Pio)
Padre Pio had a very special relationship with the Holy Souls…indeed such was the relationship that they were his frequent visitors…and led him to make the statements quoted above.
We must pray for the Souls in Purgatory. It is unbelievable, what they can do for our spiritual good, out of gratitude they have towards those on earth who remember to pray for them.’
Prayer of St. Gertrude for the Holy Souls
Eternal Father, I offer you the Most Precious Blood of your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with all the masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home and within my family. Amen."
M
Monte1945
Guest
Though the subject of Purgatory is interesting and worth while to pursue I think that
maybe there should/could be a basic platform in order to discuss this subject from
I am mainly an interested “lurker” to these forums but from reading the posts here it seems to me, and I repeat “seems to me” that the main subject objective is being set aside to focus on what some here seem to feel is an attack on their faith or knowledge of the proper christian truths as they understand them.
I am a simple person and I attempt to try and understand God’s truths in the same manner.
I would suggest that first we post a direct proclamation of what the Roman Catholic church teaches in regard to purgatory… (and this might surpise some catholics also)
I have sitting here one of the text books actually used in the Catholic seminaries as late as 1986. This book goes into catholic doctrines a bit more in conversation than to just proclaim a doctrine. They are thought of from a progressive thinking style, within “mplications of the scriptures” etc.
I think for the progression of this subject here, some of it’s text might help us here to get a grip in understand how the church sees this most interesting issue… which is actuall two fold. (purgatory and communion of saints)
I will now quote a statement from the book: "Catholicism by Richard B. McBrian study edition
Which I feel could be important towards this discussion…
According to Pope Paul VI’s Credo of the People of God (1968) and was assured by
Vatican II in their Dogmatic Constitution on the chruch:
Theological Reflections:
Purgatory is best understood as a process by which we are purged of our residual selfishness so that we can become one with God who is totally oiented to others,
i.e, the self-giving God. It is also of that larger process which we are called out of
nothingness into existence, from existence to selfhood, or responsible human existence,
from responsible human existence to christian existence, and from christian existence to
to full and final corporation into God. The kind of suffering associated with purgatory is not suffering inflicted upon us which is from the outside and as a punishment for sin but the intrinsic pain that we all feel when we are asked to surrender our ego-centered self so that the God centered loving self may take it’s place. It is part of the process by which we are called to die and rise with Christ.
Unquote…
Of course this subject has some other parts to it which as to be considered.
One has to come to terms with “communion of Saints”… what good is it to have such a doctrine if one can not effect the stages of “process” form those who are actually in pugatory from our prayers… Meaning I have to accept the fact that my prayers can be affective towards these deceased persons for the purification of their living souls.
I think of the need for one’s soul to actually be in need of such a purification from the
argument that I have always known of myself as to who I actully am as in compared to who I ought to be. And the difference in between those two different person has to be changed before I can go to the presence of God. But of course this is just my attempt to “understand with reason and logic” this truth of God.
James said… “he who knows to do good and does it not, it is a sin unto him”…
Well, I certainly have not nor do I ever do all the good I can… so I know I am always
with sin. Now I know that I have my sins forgiven by the death of resurrection of Jesus
but what do I have to endure for the consequence of those sins?
We see that with King David… Nathan told him, that even though God had forgiven
him his sin, he still had to suffer the lost of his the child for having committed the sin.
So we have in scripture there can be a consequence of sin… though we are forgiven of sin.
we can not say purgatory is or is not with certainty as the Bible and church do not have direct scriptures which directly explain it… this falls in that view “it is implied by scripture”
We do not need to know how each gear works in automobile transmissions as they certainly do “work” without us having that knowledge.
I think it is the knowledge that the soul’s of our passed on elders may be subjected to
discomfort within the process of becoming complete with Christ and that our prayers may
be of benefit too them. I think it is only right and good of us to think of them as they are still in the Body of Christ along with us… just in a different state of mind.
If they are not in the process of purification our prayers might not be in vain, but will be
heard by them of our good intentions and that might give them focus on our needs here and they can in turn offer our prayers to God for our other needs…
As for me… The Catholic Church teaches it, I believe it as I have faith in the church
for revealing God’s truths to me for my salvation and santification…
I don’t have to understand all of the truths of God. there are some which I really can’t get
to fit within my reasoning and logic. But I believe by faith in something a bit more than me. smile…
maybe there should/could be a basic platform in order to discuss this subject from
I am mainly an interested “lurker” to these forums but from reading the posts here it seems to me, and I repeat “seems to me” that the main subject objective is being set aside to focus on what some here seem to feel is an attack on their faith or knowledge of the proper christian truths as they understand them.
I am a simple person and I attempt to try and understand God’s truths in the same manner.
I would suggest that first we post a direct proclamation of what the Roman Catholic church teaches in regard to purgatory… (and this might surpise some catholics also)
I have sitting here one of the text books actually used in the Catholic seminaries as late as 1986. This book goes into catholic doctrines a bit more in conversation than to just proclaim a doctrine. They are thought of from a progressive thinking style, within “mplications of the scriptures” etc.
I think for the progression of this subject here, some of it’s text might help us here to get a grip in understand how the church sees this most interesting issue… which is actuall two fold. (purgatory and communion of saints)
I will now quote a statement from the book: "Catholicism by Richard B. McBrian study edition
Which I feel could be important towards this discussion…
According to Pope Paul VI’s Credo of the People of God (1968) and was assured by
Vatican II in their Dogmatic Constitution on the chruch:
Theological Reflections:
Purgatory is best understood as a process by which we are purged of our residual selfishness so that we can become one with God who is totally oiented to others,
i.e, the self-giving God. It is also of that larger process which we are called out of
nothingness into existence, from existence to selfhood, or responsible human existence,
from responsible human existence to christian existence, and from christian existence to
to full and final corporation into God. The kind of suffering associated with purgatory is not suffering inflicted upon us which is from the outside and as a punishment for sin but the intrinsic pain that we all feel when we are asked to surrender our ego-centered self so that the God centered loving self may take it’s place. It is part of the process by which we are called to die and rise with Christ.
Unquote…
Of course this subject has some other parts to it which as to be considered.
One has to come to terms with “communion of Saints”… what good is it to have such a doctrine if one can not effect the stages of “process” form those who are actually in pugatory from our prayers… Meaning I have to accept the fact that my prayers can be affective towards these deceased persons for the purification of their living souls.
I think of the need for one’s soul to actually be in need of such a purification from the
argument that I have always known of myself as to who I actully am as in compared to who I ought to be. And the difference in between those two different person has to be changed before I can go to the presence of God. But of course this is just my attempt to “understand with reason and logic” this truth of God.
James said… “he who knows to do good and does it not, it is a sin unto him”…
Well, I certainly have not nor do I ever do all the good I can… so I know I am always
with sin. Now I know that I have my sins forgiven by the death of resurrection of Jesus
but what do I have to endure for the consequence of those sins?
We see that with King David… Nathan told him, that even though God had forgiven
him his sin, he still had to suffer the lost of his the child for having committed the sin.
So we have in scripture there can be a consequence of sin… though we are forgiven of sin.
we can not say purgatory is or is not with certainty as the Bible and church do not have direct scriptures which directly explain it… this falls in that view “it is implied by scripture”
We do not need to know how each gear works in automobile transmissions as they certainly do “work” without us having that knowledge.
I think it is the knowledge that the soul’s of our passed on elders may be subjected to
discomfort within the process of becoming complete with Christ and that our prayers may
be of benefit too them. I think it is only right and good of us to think of them as they are still in the Body of Christ along with us… just in a different state of mind.
If they are not in the process of purification our prayers might not be in vain, but will be
heard by them of our good intentions and that might give them focus on our needs here and they can in turn offer our prayers to God for our other needs…
As for me… The Catholic Church teaches it, I believe it as I have faith in the church
for revealing God’s truths to me for my salvation and santification…
I don’t have to understand all of the truths of God. there are some which I really can’t get
to fit within my reasoning and logic. But I believe by faith in something a bit more than me. smile…
R
rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
You can count me in also. To me the Church is led by the Holy Spirit. If the CC teaches it I am a Student who accepts the teachings of the RCC!
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
**Interesting…
But this doesn’t really assist those of us who are under no obligation to accept without evidence, what is taught by the Roman Catholic Church.**
But this doesn’t really assist those of us who are under no obligation to accept without evidence, what is taught by the Roman Catholic Church.**
B
BlueSapphire
Guest
youtube.com/watch?v=ztGekQa7rWg&feature=related
Link to Purgatory Museum vid.
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no explanation is possible!
Link to Purgatory Museum vid.
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no explanation is possible!
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BlueSapphire
Guest
II Maccabees 12:39-46
“And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”
“And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”
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Andrew_Phillip
Guest
No Otrthodox Christian is arguing about prayer for the dead.
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BlueSapphire
Guest
The Saints in Heaven doesn’t need our prayers as they are enjoying the Beatific Vision, neither can our prayers help the damned in Hell. Only the Souls in Purgatory and the Living can benefit from our prayers!
A
Andrew_Phillip
Guest
**Ahhhh… this thread has already been around the block on these assertions many times.
Perhaps a look back through the debate will enlighten you as to why we Eastern Orthodox differ with you Roman Catholics re several key elements of the statement you have just made.
It’s all here in the earlier pages of this thread - and as a newcomer - you should really take a look at what has already been said. Then we can talk.**
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BlueSapphire
Guest
They let us agree to disagree!
God Bless!
God Bless!
- Status