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Bill_Pick
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TS is this the same person that is here to start trouble.I was thinking he/she was banned
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rinnie
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Could you show me where it states that. That Adams Bosom is the same as heaven. Thanks.
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TheosisM
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Rinnie, I already posted this in post #154 of this thread!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6270193&postcount=154
“Since the coming of Our Lord, “the Bosom of Abraham” gradually ceased to designate a place of imperfect happiness, and it has become synonymous with Heaven itself.”
newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm
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choy
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while i’m not sure if the Church officially recognizes it as Limbo, Hades or Bossom of Abraham, or some other term, but its clearly in the Church teaching that Jesus went to this holding place for righteous souls who cannot enter heaven only because Jesus has not made the way to heaven yet.
read it here → scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm#p1
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rinnie
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Yes after Jesus came and released the souls. But until that time they were not in heaven. They were awaiting heaven. SINCE THE COMMING OF OF LORD. NOT BEFORE THE COMMING OF OUR LORD.
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choy
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a more accurate term is that Purgatory is not a destination but a process. no one goes to Purgatory for good. its a process of going to heaven, to purify yourself and be worthy of the presence of God
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rinnie
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Thats the way I understand it. And this place could not be heaven at that time. My point is it existed then, and it exists now. A holding place for the righeous souls.
Purgatory is the name given today to the place for souls that need to be perfected in CHrist though the cleansing fires. It was called Hades, Paradise, or the Bossom of Abrahan then. But either way they are both paradise because you know you are heading to heaven. You are very very happy because when you made it to purgatory just like Bossom of Abraham in the O.T you are considered rigtheous in the eyes of God.
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TheosisM
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I know this. Again, please stop reading things into what I say, as I never said that these people were in Heaven (I’ve repeatedly said that Abraham’s Bosom was a waiting place!). What I did say (or rather what the Catholic Encyclopedia says, as I directly quoted from it) is that Abraham’s Bosom is now synonymous with Heaven, by the ECFs. I then asked “Is there anywhere that I can read that the Bosom of Abraham has become synonymous with Purgatory?”
You are equating the Bosom of Abraham with Purgatory, while the Catholic Encyclopedia equates it with Heaven, again in support of everything I’ve been saying. I have repeatedly asked for theological references in support of what you are claiming.
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rinnie
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Another thing in common with Paradise in the O.T. Being held with Abraham was also tempory until Jesus Christ came in glory to deliver them from death.
Rather you want to call purgatory a State or Place its still a place where you are waiting to get to heaven.
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TheosisM
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Very true, I did not mean to imply that one’s eternal destination could be Purgatory. What I meant was that after one dies, one can go to either Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory (and of course Heaven comes after Purgatory by definition).
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choy
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there’s no use for it today
in the old days it was impossible to get to Heaven. Jesus made that possible. since we can get to heaven now, what is the use of a holding place for righteous souls who deserve heaven anyway? its not like Abraham and the others in Limbo didn’t deserve heaven, they did. they just can’t get there until Jesus makes the path for them
Purgatory is a completely different thing. its a purification process. Limbo did not purify those who were there
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choy
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of course
but it becomes a matter of debate especially for Protestants who say that the Catholics made up a third destination, which is Purgatory. just so we don’t get attacked on the semantics, i think its necessary to be clear that Purgatory is not a destination
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rinnie
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What part of the things that I said that have in common do you disagree with anyway?
What am I saying that goes directly against scripture. I am showing the things that they have in common. Why does that upset you so?
What am I saying that goes directly against scripture. I am showing the things that they have in common. Why does that upset you so?
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TheosisM
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You are equating Purgatory with Abraham’s Bosom, without giving any ECF or theologian support for it, when even the Catholic Encyclopedia states that Abraham’s Bosom is now synonymous with Heaven, with no mention of Purgatory at all.
You originally cited the Lazarus story as evidence of a “middle place” (then implied that this middle place was Purgatory in that post), when the Lazarus story is evidence of the existence of Abraham’s Bosom, not Purgatory.
You speculate on what actually happens/happened in Abraham’s Bosom (“cleansing”), when there is no basis for this, and again, without any theological citation.
You ignore that Purgatory includes a…purgatorial element that is absent from Abraham’s Bosom.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives two different views of Purgatory and Abraham’s Bosom.
I have already said that there is a similarity between the two, in that they are “middle places”. However, the existence of one place (Abraham’s Bosom) does not imply or necessitate the existence of another place (Purgatory). Therefore, bringing up Abraham’s Bosom in support of Purgatory doesn’t make sense, because Abraham’s Bosom is only proof of itself, as it has nothing to do with Purgatory. As Choy also said, it’s a completely different thing.
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choy
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talking to me?
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rinnie
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I agree with you Choy that Jesus did away with the waiting if you were perfected in Christ by CHrist there is no need for Purgatory. But there was no purgatory then because Jesus did not come yet. I am just saying he replaced Abraham with Purgatory is all. But its the same thing a waiting place. THe only difference Abraham and the others had Original sin. Jesus did away with Original Sin through Baptism. But he still has a waiting place the same as the O.T. FOr the righeous that have not been perfected in Christ, but have been deemed Worthy. It is still a place or state of waiting to be perfected in Christ.
Only for some. beings that Christ died and freed us from original sin we can skip the final cleansing. Or the waiting period we can say. But for others we must still go for the waiting period for we have cleansing to be done, and that woud mean waiting because instant access to heaven is no granted. For most I am afraid.
But my point is the only difference is Jesus freed us from Original sin. Abraham and other had to wait to be freed from Original sin. ANd you cannot enter eternal happiness or entrance into heaven with original sin. Thats how I know it was different.
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rinnie
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No Choy we are on the same page.
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rinnie
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My point is and still is that Purgatory replaced Paradise in the O.T. Its still a waiting place or state,
No not completely. That is my whole point. SHowing how O.T had a waiting place for the Righteous and the N.T has a waiting place for the righteous. The ONLY difference is in the O.T they had to wait for Jesus. In the N.T if they are found without sin they can go without purgatory. In the O.T. it was impossible. They had original sin.
My point is and still is that Purgatory replaced Paradise in the O.T. Its still a waiting place or state,
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TheosisM
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Again: Please cite evidence from the ECFs or other theologians that Purgatory replaced Paradise/Abraham’s Bosom as “the waiting place” (ignoring that Purgatory is a place of purgation/temporal fire). I have never read this before.
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rinnie
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It in scripture Theo. When Jesus died he went to release the souls in the bosom of Abraham. He cleaned it out. The righteous were granted eternal life into heaven. Jesus opened it up and they rose. ALL the righteous were released.
Purgatory is the final cleansing made possible by the death of Jesus. Purgatory did not exist at the time because Jesus did not come yet. Purgatory replaced Abrahams Bosom with the final cleansing. It is now a waiting place or state that is still for the righteous. But now that Jesus cleaned out paradise there is not need for it. But there are still righteous that need that final cleansing and waiting. That Purgatory. But it still a final waiting place to be cleansed just like the bosom of Abraham. Just like the bosom of abraham if you make it to purgatory you are also righteous, you just need that final cleansing from sin. It was just original sin in the OT. But they still needed a final cleansing, By the death of inocent blood of Christ the were set free also.
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