Purgatory......

[1beleevr]

Ib what is baptism for? Is it not for the forgiveness of sins. To begin with how could I even begin to know how many people the Apostles Baptised in the bible. It says thousands. I mean at pentecost alone Peter said repent and be Baptised. And the bible alone said they went out and made disciples of all nations.

And how could I possibly know how many people repented and asked the Priests for forgivenes since Pentecost!

Silly girl, I wasn’t talking about baptism! I was asking how many times in scripture, were there examples of disciples forgiving sins(as referred to in John 20:23? Peter also told them to repent and turn back to God for forgiveness of their sins. Then he said,“be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Spirit.” So, no I do not believe that baptism saves you; that would be grace through faithin Jesus Christ! Why did Jesus get baptized?

 

[1beleevr]

Hey lb did they tell you the world was going to ends again. I think they are saying its 2012 this time Thats the latest I heard. I had a customer come in last week she was scared to death. She said I know you know the bible, you are catholic where does it say its 2012. I told her calm down love, it doesn’t. God said only the Father knows when. And I told her he’s like the dog duke on the beans commercial he ain’t tellen

No, they just talk about the 144,000 chosen few, and how Jesus was not God in the flesh. I believe that they also teach that Jesus was Michael, the archangel!

 

[1beleevr]

If Jesus Christ was not the founder of the Church,who was do you have a name,ALL on this board just can not waite,PLEASE tell me who ,was it…
PS
I know you get confused so please read this verse and then tell me who it is that is talking to MK 16;18=19

Jesus did "build His church, just not sure it was today’s catholic church. The “Rock” could also be Jesus Himself:thumbsup:

 

[adrift]

Sounds as if you speak from experience! Hey, this a bit off topic, but a friend of mine, aho recently left the catholic church, said I should watch a movie called"Luther."Does it exist? Is it any good? He said that he heard that indulgences were paid, and that some people could buy their families out of purgatory

There is many things “heard” about the Catholic faith that is false and this is one of them. Read post 721. Do a search on the movie as I remember there was a thread on it.

 

[adrift]

Still not totally sure that the catholic church, is the visible body of Christ; or the church that Jesus founded

The only viable choice is Catholic or Orthodox. All other Churches were started by a man or a woman.

 

[adrift]

Hey lb did they tell you the world was going to ends again. I think they are saying its 2012 this time Thats the latest I heard. I had a customer come in last week she was scared to death. She said I know you know the bible, you are catholic where does it say its 2012. I told her calm down love, it doesn’t. God said only the Father knows when. And I told her he’s like the dog duke on the beans commercial he ain’t tellen

I thought they stopped making the prediction of when the world was ending since it hasn’t happened on any of the dates predicted

 

[Dorothy]

Sounds as if you speak from experience! Hey, this a bit off topic, but a friend of mine, aho recently left the catholic church, said I should watch a movie called"Luther."Does it exist? Is it any good? He said that he heard that indulgences were paid, and that some people could buy their families out of purgatory

Yes, there was corruption in the Church with regard to money. There was problems right from the start with the Church…Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, all the disciples but John did not show up at the foot of the Cross.

Sin, however, does not change the truth of what the Church teaches. There are many saints in the Church also.

There are scandals in every denomination. But scandals of members of the Church does not eclipse the truth of what the Church teaches.

Unfortunately, Luther changed some doctrine, and over the years there were many more splits.

 

[rinnie]

Silly girl, I wasn’t talking about baptism! I was asking how many times in scripture, were there examples of disciples forgiving sins(as referred to in John 20:23? Peter also told them to repent and turn back to God for forgiveness of their sins. Then he said,“be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and receive the Holy Spirit.” So, no I do not believe that baptism saves you; that would be grace through faithin Jesus Christ! Why did Jesus get baptized?

Hi Ib, Jesus didn’t have to be baptized, he did it for our benefit. When Jesus got baptised it was when he became revealed as the divine. He is the new Joshua (heb. for God saves), which reveals him as not just a man but the word of God made flesh who leads us to the kingdom of God.

The Pope wrote a book Jesus of Nazareth, it was awesome. I never picked up on this but you may have, but I think you will enjoy this.

In the fourth Gospel John tells us he did not know (JN 1:30-33) how he was to prepare the way, he just knew he was to do it. All four gospels tell him he is to do it though.

In Mark he reports there went out to him all the country of Judea and all the people of Jerusalem and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan CONFESSING THEIR SINS. Mark 1:5 So again we do disagree alot on scripture. I was taught that baptism was for forgiveness of sins. And that scripture shows them confessing them.

But here is what I found awesome and would like to share with you, I never saw it THIS WAY and wondered if you did.

So we go back to see baptism was itself a confesson of sins, an attempt to put off the old and receive the new. How could Jesus confess sins, what did he do? The pope explains this is something Christians could not avoid asking. The dispute between the Baptist and Jesus recounts the own question to Jesus I need to be baptised by you and do you come to me. (Mt 3:14) Now here come this good part. Cont:

 

[rinnie]

So Matt goes on to say Mt3:15. Let it be so nowm for this it is fitting for us to FULIFLL all righteousness, THEN he consented.

Now the Pope explains it is not easy to decode the enigmatic sounding answer. The greek word for now ARTI implies a certain reservation. This is a specific, tempory situation that call for a specific way of acting. The key to understanding Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righeousness. The whole of righteousnes must be fulfilled. In Jesus’ world righteousness is a mans answer to the Torah acceptance of the whole of Gods will the bearing of the yoke of Gods kingdom as ne formulation had it. Thereis no provision for John baptism in the Torah but this replu of Jeus is hi way of acknowledging it as an expression of an unrestricted YES to Gods will as an obedient of acceptance to his yoke.

The act of decending into the water of Baptism implies a confession of guilt and plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning. In a world marked by sin, this yes to the entire will of God also expresses solidarity with men who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness.

The signifance of this event could not fully energe until it is seen in the light of the Cross and Resurrection.

I could show you so so much more Ib but I know you are not Catholic, but if you would get that book you would never regret it.

That is we as Catholics are taught we must be taught N.T. in line with the O.T. You can never read one without understanding the other to reveal the meaning.

 

[traillius]

A bible verse with no context or point of reference? huh??

" will not be in forgiven in this world or the world to come. "
This means there is a place after death where mercy can be extended.
Well in Hell mercy is not possible, and in heaven, mercy is not necessary
So there must be a third place, Catholics call it purgatory.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, there was corruption in the Church with regard to money. There was problems right from the start with the Church…Judas betrayed Christ, Peter denied him, all the disciples but John did not show up at the foot of the Cross.

Sin, however, does not change the truth of what the Church teaches. There are many saints in the Church also.

There are scandals in every denomination. But scandals of members of the Church does not eclipse the truth of what the Church teaches.

Unfortunately, Luther changed some doctrine, and over the years there were many more splits.

Yes Ib Dorthy is right. Jesus told us that the devil is the master of disguise. That he would try to continue to tear down the Church of God. Look how he tried to tempt Jesus for goodness sakes.

Jesus never promised us the Church would not have its trials, he actually warned us, But he said NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENED we could rely on these things.

1. The Church would never fail
2. The Pope and Bishops could never fail us when they are teaching with the gift of the H.S.

SO sure there were abuses, and still are every single day I am sure. But the word of God has never changed in the RCC and never will.

And do you really take Luther as a role model Look at the life he lived. I don’t want to throw stones, Lord knows I have enough of my own sins, but luther gave a pretty good shot also of breaking all ten commandments himself.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry guys for de-railing again, I know Sister’s comming with the ruler again. IB you always get me in trouble

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So Matt goes on to say Mt3:15. Let it be so nowm for this it is fitting for us to FULIFLL all righteousness, THEN he consented.

Now the Pope explains it is not easy to decode the enigmatic sounding answer. The greek word for now ARTI implies a certain reservation. This is a specific, tempory situation that call for a specific way of acting. The key to understanding Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righeousness. The whole of righteousnes must be fulfilled. In Jesus’ world righteousness is a mans answer to the Torah acceptance of the whole of Gods will the bearing of the yoke of Gods kingdom as ne formulation had it. Thereis no provision for John baptism in the Torah but this replu of Jeus is hi way of acknowledging it as an expression of an unrestricted YES to Gods will as an obedient of acceptance to his yoke.

The act of decending into the water of Baptism implies a confession of guilt and plea for forgiveness in order to make a new beginning. In a world marked by sin, this yes to the entire will of God also expresses solidarity with men who have incurred guilt but yearn for righteousness.

The signifance of this event could not fully energe until it is seen in the light of the Cross and Resurrection.

I could show you so so much more Ib but I know you are not Catholic, but if you would get that book you would never regret it.

That is we as Catholics are taught we must be taught N.T. in line with the O.T. You can never read one without understanding the other to reveal the meaning.

I believe you are right when you say: “The key to understanding Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righeousness.”
In Jeramiah 23:6 we read: 6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus altho sinless decided to be baptised to fulfill OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. He knew that there would be people that for some reason or another could not be baptised (ie. the thief on the cross). So He being our propitiation in all things was baptised for them. Baptism however does not take away sins. If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross. What baptism is, is basically an anouncement that the one being baptised has accepted Jesus as thier Lord and Savior and have repented of thier sins. It is this acceptance and repentance that allows the candidate to be forgiven. The baptismal rite is important also in it’s symbolism.

Romans6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

When we are plunged under the waters of baptism, we are accepting His death in place of our death, and when we come up from the water (grave) we accept Jesus’ resurrection as ours and therefore walk in newness of life. This symbolism is the reason that the only valid form of baptim is total immersion. And because baptism is an act of faith only those old enough to accept Christ in faith are capable of being baptised.

 

[rinnie]

I believe you are right when you say: “The key to understanding Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righeousness.”
In Jeramiah 23:6 we read: 6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus altho sinless decided to be baptised to fulfill OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. He knew that there would be people that for some reason or another could not be baptised (ie. the thief on the cross). So He being our propitiation in all things was baptised for them. Baptism however does not take away sins. If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross. What baptism is, is basically an anouncement that the one being baptised has accepted Jesus as thier Lord and Savior and have repented of thier sins. It is this acceptance and repentance that allows the candidate to be forgiven. The baptismal rite is important also in it’s symbolism.

Romans6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

When we are plunged under the waters of baptism, we are accepting His death in place of our death, and when we come up from the water (grave) we accept Jesus’ resurrection as ours and therefore walk in newness of life. This symbolism is the reason that the only valid form of baptim is total immersion. And because baptism is an act of faith only those old enough to accept Christ in faith are capable of being baptised./QUO

Okay first of all where does scripture say FULL IMMERSION is the only valid Baptsim.

Next you say Baptism is not for forgiveness of sins Mark 1:4 contradicts you.

Third if baptist is only for adults why does scripture again contradict you. Why in acts 2:37 does it say repent and be baptised EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ fro the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the holy spirit. For this promise is made to YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. (again scripture contradicts you)

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jesus did "build His church, just not sure it was today’s catholic church. The “Rock” could also be Jesus Himself:thumbsup:

Read your greek, Jesus was talking in greek and Rock is Peter,now do you understand

 

[tweetymom]

Richard Kastner;6405352:

I believe you are right when you say: “The key to understanding Jesus’ answer is how we understand the word righeousness.”
In Jeramiah 23:6 we read: 6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus altho sinless decided to be baptised to fulfill OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. He knew that there would be people that for some reason or another could not be baptised (ie. the thief on the cross). So He being our propitiation in all things was baptised for them. Baptism however does not take away sins. If that were the case there would have been no need for the cross. What baptism is, is basically an anouncement that the one being baptised has accepted Jesus as thier Lord and Savior and have repented of thier sins. It is this acceptance and repentance that allows the candidate to be forgiven. The baptismal rite is important also in it’s symbolism.

Romans6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

When we are plunged under the waters of baptism, we are accepting His death in place of our death, and when we come up from the water (grave) we accept Jesus’ resurrection as ours and therefore walk in newness of life. This symbolism is the reason that the only valid form of baptim is total immersion. And because baptism is an act of faith only those old enough to accept Christ in faith are capable of being baptised.[/QUO

Okay first of all where does scripture say FULL IMMERSION is the only valid Baptsim.

Next you say Baptism is not for forgiveness of sins Mark 1:4 contradicts you.

Third if baptist is only for adults why does scripture again contradict you. Why in acts 2:37 does it say repent and be baptised EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ fro the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the holy spirit. For this promise is made to YOU and YOUR CHILDREN. (again scripture contradicts you)

How does a baby repent?

[/quote]

 

[Bill_Pick]

rinnie;6405822:

How does a baby repent?

At His/her confirmation

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;6405822:

How does a baby repent?

Tweety a baby did not have to repent. Mt 28:19 The baptism of Jesus’ disciples have been administering since he spoke those words, into the Masters own Baptism into the reality that he anticipated by means of it. That is the way to become a Christian.

It was by the Baptism of Jesus that heaven was torn open, that the spirit came down upon him like a dove and in the midst of all this voice from heaven came down. That was the transfiguration of Jesus. His communion of the will with the Father is the fulfillment of all righteousness opens heaven.

Do you disagree with the teachings of the Church that by the sin of adam and eve we are all born into Original sin? We do not have to repent original sin, we are not responsible for it, We only have to repent actual sin. Babys at the time of the Apostles were only a result of OS same as today. But we as adults are responsible to repent actual sin today the same as the early Apostles. If we were baptised as adults back then yes we would repent first actual sin, Do you thi nk adults back then had not actual sin, only original as a baby?

 

[rinnie]

Read your greek, Jesus was talking in greek and Rock is Peter,now do you understand

Oh Bill you do like to get to the point!!

 

[T_More]

Oh Bill you do like to get to the point!!

And to drive it home even further, was not Christ likely speaking in Aramaic? So how would that read then? “You are Kepha. And upon this Kepha, I will build my Church.” This makes it even more plain.