Purgatory......

[1beleevr]

Actually yes some were criminals… murderers and thieves as a matter of fact. So just because a murderer or a thief isn’t caught that means they’re not in fact criminals? As long as nobody catches me I’m sinless?

Now you made my point. Jesus KNEW that he was “hiring” criminals and he KNEW that they were who they were, yet he still hired them.

I hate to burst your bubble, but yeah, the priest is acting “Persona Christi” and the priest might be a “criminal” too yet I know what Jesus did and I trust what He said when he breathed the Holy Spirit upon them and told them that whatever was bound on earth would be bound in heaven, whatever was forgiven on earth was forgiven in heaven.

How do you know for sure that these fishermen, and commoners were murderers and thieves? Matthew(or Levi) was considered scandalous, because he was a tax collector, but I can find no mention of any of the twelve being a murderer! And of course, just because a murderer is not caught, does not make him/her less of a criminal! Of all the thousands of inmates that I have come into contact over the last 21 years, I cannot definitively say that each and every one is guilty of the crime they were convicted of, but they’re there and so am I( I’m wearing the badge, of course). And that’s why you’re catholic and I’m not; you believe that John 20:20-23, gave the disciples the power to forgive sins, and ultimately pass that power and authority down through the ages to your pope and priests today! I, however, do not share that belief! ho’s right, who’s wrong? Who knows?

 

[Loboto-Me]

How do you know for sure that these fishermen, and commoners were murderers and thieves? Matthew(or Levi) was considered scandalous, because he was a tax collector, but I can find no mention of any of the twelve being a murderer! And of course, just because a murderer is not caught, does not make him/her less of a criminal! Of all the thousands of inmates that I have come into contact over the last 21 years, I cannot definitively say that each and every one is guilty of the crime they were convicted of, but they’re there and so am I( I’m wearing the badge, of course). And that’s why you’re catholic and I’m not; you believe that John 20:20-23, gave the disciples the power to forgive sins, and ultimately pass that power and authority down through the ages to your pope and priests today! I, however, do not share that belief! ho’s right, who’s wrong? Who knows?

Saul who became Paul consents to the stoning of Stephen, and holds their clothes as he is being stoned.

Acts:

57 And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. 58 And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 59 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

Consenting to a murder is being a murderer, whether he’s the hitman or he’s the one hiring the hitman.

Matthew was a tax collector, tax collectors in those days were despised by both the jews and the romans because they were often “legal thieves” . They would take bribes. Matthew had acquired great wealth when he was chosen by Jesus, I wonder how a tax collector in those days got wealthy?

As far as what you choose to believe about what Jesus announced, that’s your choice, we all have “free will” I know who’s wrong and who’s right because once again, Jesus gave the command.

 

[Bill_Pick]

How do you know for sure that these fishermen, and commoners were murderers and thieves? Matthew(or Levi) was considered scandalous, because he was a tax collector, but I can find no mention of any of the twelve being a murderer! And of course, just because a murderer is not caught, does not make him/her less of a criminal! Of all the thousands of inmates that I have come into contact over the last 21 years, I cannot definitively say that each and every one is guilty of the crime they were convicted of, but they’re there and so am I( I’m wearing the badge, of course). And that’s why you’re catholic and I’m not; you believe that John 20:20-23, gave the disciples the power to forgive sins, and ultimately pass that power and authority down through the ages to your pope and priests today! I, however, do not share that belief! ho’s right, who’s wrong? Who knows?

1beleever have you ever heard of APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

 

[1beleevr]

1beleever have you ever heard of APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

Ad nauseum, actually; just not sure of the purity of this succession! I believe that the disciples were empowered to take the Gospel forward, baptize and heal! Just not sure if all who are supposedly in that succession are anointed, and ordained by God(and not just man)

 

[1beleevr]

Saul who became Paul consents to the stoning of Stephen, and holds their clothes as he is being stoned.

Acts:

57 And casting him forth without the city, they stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man, whose name was Saul. 58 And they stoned Stephen, invoking, and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 59 And falling on his knees, he cried with a loud voice, saying: Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep in the Lord. And Saul was consenting to his death.

Consenting to a murder is being a murderer, whether he’s the hitman or he’s the one hiring the hitman.

Matthew was a tax collector, tax collectors in those days were despised by both the jews and the romans because they were often “legal thieves” . They would take bribes. Matthew had acquired great wealth when he was chosen by Jesus, I wonder how a tax collector in those days got wealthy?

As far as what you choose to believe about what Jesus announced, that’s your choice, we all have “free will” I know who’s wrong and who’s right because once again, Jesus gave the command.

To say you KNOW who’s right and who’s wrong, is to say you can see into the heart of God, as He is the only One who knows everything! You have been taught a certain way to believe something and I respect you for being true to that teaching! And I said that Matthew was scandalous; he was probably skimming off the top! And, besides Paul, you have not identified any murderers!

 

[Loboto-Me]

To say you KNOW who’s right and who’s wrong, is to say you can see into the heart of God, as He is the only One who knows everything! You have been taught a certain way to believe something and I respect you for being true to that teaching! And I said that Matthew was scandalous; he was probably skimming off the top! And, besides Paul, you have not identified any murderers!

Huh? Besides Paul? What did you want them ALL to be murderers? You said that none were murderers, I showed that it wasn’t none it was at least one. Just because one of the apostles was a murderer means that yes, huge sinners were put into our bishopry to “lead the business” as you say.

Jesus is God would you agree? So Jesus revealed the heart of God when he told the Apostles to go and forgive sins because what was forgiven here on earth would be forgiven in heaven. So yes, I claim I can see into the heart of God in this situation.

 

[1beleevr]

Huh? Besides Paul? What did you want them ALL to be murderers? You said that none were murderers, I showed that it wasn’t none it was at least one. Just because one of the apostles was a murderer means that yes, huge sinners were put into our bishopry to “lead the business” as you say.

Jesus is God would you agree? So Jesus revealed the heart of God when he told the Apostles to go and forgive sins because what was forgiven here on earth would be forgiven in heaven. So yes, I claim I can see into the heart of God in this situation.

I did not want them to be anything, besides what they were:followers of Christ! And you brought up the murderer idea< claiming that Jesus "hired murderers, thugs and thieves. I just asked you to validate your assertion! And I suppose that as Christians, we are all able to see into the heart of God? Still disagree with you; which doesn’t make me right or wrong, nor you!

 

[adrift]

No. I am saying that Catholics recognize that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Baptism is an amazing public announcement to all who witness it, but a person can enter heaven without ever being baptized (and Catholics believe this).

You are wrong in what Catholic believe. Catholics believe that Baptism IS a requirement.
From the Catechism:

VI. The Necessity of Baptism

1257
The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258
The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259
For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260
"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

1261
As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[Xavierlives]

Huh? Besides Paul? What did you want them ALL to be murderers? You said that none were murderers, I showed that it wasn’t none it was at least one. Just because one of the apostles was a murderer means that yes, huge sinners were put into our bishopry to “lead the business” as you say.

Jesus is God would you agree? So Jesus revealed the heart of God when he told the Apostles to go and forgive sins because what was forgiven here on earth would be forgiven in heaven. So yes, I claim I can see into the heart of God in this situation.

Well I think we are losing sight of the overall thought here. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We all are murderers and adulterers and every sort of sinner. Some of the greatest servants of God have blood on their hands (Moses, David, etc.). The point is through Christ we are cleansed.

So, when you talk about whether someone would hire an ex-con for a job of trust, you cannot compare God’s plan for us. God can see into the hearts of man, we cannot. God trusts the man because God knows the end result.

 

[adrift]

Aint that the truth? Many on both sides will never accept things we say, even though we use Holy Scripture!

Two Post above 1088

 

[adrift]

There is so much charity in these posts against you that it is dripping off the page

Splashing right on her lack of charity

 

[adrift]

Actually, rinn, it is you! y saying that infant baptism is ordained, you are implying that these babies know exactly what is going on! Why don’t we just baptize all those who are unbelievers? Would they be saved, even without a profession of faith? Babies can’t make a confession of faith, can they?

Luke 1:41 John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb and rejoiced when he heard Mary.

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,

I heard one man say that he could remember his birth. I have memories from when I was six month.

I read a magazine article that recounted three persons attempt at suicide. One tried poison, one tried cutting themselves and I don’t recall what the third did. In trying to help them it was discovered that each of them tried suicide at the same time of year that their mother had tried to abort them. One attempt of abortion was through pills, another tried to cut the baby out and however the third tried suicide that is how her mother tried to kill her. Once they understood that they were reenacting their mother’s attempt at abortion they were cured. The POINT in case you missed it. You have no idea what babies know and when they know it.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Xavierlives, in reference to Adrift’s statement

*Originally Posted by adrift *http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I don’t know God’s reasoning. I only know He did give this power to His Church. It is Scriptural

So, if you owned a business, would you hire an ex-convict as head of security? Another question, are the priests who administer confession, sinless?

1beleevr was basically saying “why would God hire ex-cons as head of security”

My answer was in reference to putting myself in Jesus’ shoes as he DID “hire” ex-cons as head of security. If you read further, you’ll see that in fact he hired them and He knew that they were “ex-cons” from the very moment that he hired them.

 

[Loboto-Me]

I heard one man say that he could remember his birth. I have memories from when I was six month.

Don’t laugh but years ago I described exactly where in the room that my basinette was in the hospital at my birth. I remember that I was in the second row from the window and I was banked by 2 a baby who wouldn’t stop crying on my right.

I forgot to add that my mom was flabbergasted that I knew that and told me that I was right.

 

[adrift]

I am constanly intrigued by those who try to say that circumcision and baptism are similar Circumcision was a practice which represented the covenant made between God an the Jews! This was a command from God, which fell under the old covenant; identifying Jews, and a sign that they were obedient! Paul tells us repeatedly that there is no need to be circumcised for salvation! The new covenant, started when Christ died on the Cross, did away with the need for circumcision as a means to identify one as God’s people! Baptism is a part of the salvation process; but does not remove your sins, this is the work of His blood!

It is because scripture says so:

Colossians Chapter 2
11: In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12: and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

; but does not remove your sins, this is the work of His blood

Scriptures that speak to the forgiveness of sins.

1 Peter 3:
20
who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21
This prefigured baptism,which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

How can it save you if it does not forgive sins?

Acts Chapter 2
38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ** for the forgiveness of your sins**; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.” 40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Titus Chapter 3
4: but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5: he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6: which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7: so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life

 

[adrift]

The scripture is vague as to whether Jesus actually gave his disciples the power to forgive sins,

Vague
Matthew Chapter 16
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John Chapter 20
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Corinthians Chapter 2
10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

2 Corinthians Chapter 5
18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

James Chapter 5
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1 John Chapter 1
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

 

[adrift]

Don’t laugh but years ago I described exactly where in the room that my basinette was in the hospital at my birth. I remember that I was in the second row from the window and I was banked by 2 a baby who wouldn’t stop crying on my right.

I forgot to add that my mom was flabbergasted that I knew that and told me that I was right.

You won’t find me laughing. Thank you for adding to my point.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Priests don’t need to be sinless to administer confession anyway because when they are in the confessional they are in “Persona Christi” and HE is sinless.

This is blaspheme.

 

[Loboto-Me]

This is blaspheme.

You don’t know what blaspheme is. Actually, since you deny Christ’s authority to delegate, I say that you blaspheme dear sir.

 

[adrift]

This is blaspheme.

Jesus has been accused of blaspheme before.