Purgatory......

[1beleevr]

You don’t know what blaspheme is. Actually, since you deny Christ’s authority to delegate, I say that you blaspheme dear sir.

To tell the truth, many on both sides have been guilty of blasphemy, in this forum! But it is borderline blasphemy to say that priests don’t have to be sinless to forgive other’s sins! That is if you believe that men can forgive sins

 

[1beleevr]

Vague
Matthew Chapter 16
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John Chapter 20
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Corinthians Chapter 2
10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

2 Corinthians Chapter 5
18: All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

James Chapter 5
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1 John Chapter 1
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Did? you forget Colossians 1:14(KJV)

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by 1beleevr
Actually, rinn, it is you! y saying that infant baptism is ordained, you are implying that these babies know exactly what is going on! Why don’t we just baptize all those who are unbelievers? Would they be saved, even without a profession of faith? Babies can’t make a confession of faith, can they?

We believe that we are born with the stain of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve, This is one reason that we believe in infant Baptism. Baptism washes away that stain. Also, there had to be infants and children among the thousands that were baptized according to Acts 2:41, and when Cornelius, his family, and friends were all baptized ( Acts 10:47-48). I hope you understand. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[1beleevr]

We believe that we are born with the stain of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve, This is one reason that we believe in infant Baptism. Baptism washes away that stain. Also, there had to be infants and children among the thousands that were baptized according to Acts 2:41, and when Cornelius, his family, and friends were all baptized ( Acts 10:47-48). I hope you understand. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

Your posts are always quite clear, my brother in Christ!:thumbsup:I for one, believe that original sin along with all sins of the world were forgiven when Christ shed His precious Blood on the Cross! Baptism generally happens after one has made a profession of faith, and accepted His generous, yet undeserved offer of eternal life! I pe you understand that I don’t believe that baptism forgives us of sin, nor does it save us! Belief in(by faith) and acceptance of His invitation to turn from your sinful life come first! Then Baptism! Bless you, and may He richly endow you with that you need!

 

[adrift]

Did? you forget Colossians 1:14(KJV)

I don’t understand your question. It isn’t an either or equation. Colossians does not refer to Jesus’ giving the power to forgive sins. You said that it was vague. I don’t know what you mean by vague reread the scripture I posted. It isn’t vague.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You don’t know what blaspheme is. Actually, since you deny Christ’s authority to delegate, I say that you blaspheme dear sir.

Jn.10:36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[1beleevr]

Yes I would hire an ex-convict as head of security if he was sorrowful for his sin and vowed never to sin again and meant it.

I guess Jesus was a bad business owner because that’s exactly what he did when he “hired” Judas, and the other apostles who denied Him.

Does this mean that YOU don’t forgive people because you aren’t sinless?

Priests don’t need to be sinless to administer confession anyway because when they are in the confessional they are in “Persona Christi” and HE is sinless.

I’m going to tell my pastor that since he is our shepherd, and anointed and ordained(persona Christi, if you will) that he can forgive sins!

 

[guanophore]

Everytime I read,“guanophore”, I envision a nun, arms crossed, ruler in hand, tapping her foot!

I wonder why that might be?

Are my parochial gradeschool teachers coming through?

I ahve not been misled by anyone! As promised, Jesus sent me an Advocate, who is leading me into Spirit and Truth!

I will stipulate that you do not believe you were misled. I am sure there is a good reason you are here on CAF.

Whether or not baptism is how the blood of Christ is applied, is open for debate,

For those who have reveived the Teaching of the Apostles, there is no debate. They taught that baptism is the normative means by which we are joined with Him in His death.

and those who die in their sin, never believed that Jesus is truly the Son of God, and that He washes away their sins with His life giving blood!

Are you suggesting that everyone is saved?

Acts 8:37 is in response to those who say that baptism forgives and washes your sin away. First you must have faith and believe, then you get baptized!

The Apostles taught that forgiveness of sins and washing away of them occurs in baptism.

they also taught that baptism replaces circumcision as the entrance rite into the New Covenant.

Adults, of course, must make a profession of faith. However, salvation is not withheld from those who cannot, the young, the sick, the disabled, or anyone else who cannot make such a profession of faith.

 

[guanophore]

KJV says in Colossians 1:14, that it is the blood of Christ which removes our sins!

You say that you agree that the blood of Christ removes sin and then you say that that is accomplished through baptism. rinnie this last statement of yours is just not true it was accomplished by Jesus on the cross.

No, rinnie is right on, Richard. Jesus did cover our sins by His death on the cross. The merits of His propitiation for our sins are applied to us in our baptism. The Apostles taught that it is in baptism that we are joined to Him in His death. This is how it is that baptism can wash away our sins. The washing of regeneration, as the Apostles called it, is effective because of the shed blood.

During the Reformation, certain persons decided to separate themselves from the Apostolic Teaching. At that time, they also separated the blood of Christ from Baptism.

   Don't you see what you are doing, You insist on substituting the acts of man for the saving sacrifice of Christ. Take another look at these vs. They tell an irrefutable story of the love of Christ and the **faith **it takes to be justified before God.

No, Richard. Baptism is not an “act of man”. It was instituted by Christ as the means by which we are born again of water and spirit. Yes, we participate in it, but it is not our participation that makes it effective. It is the Spirit of God, accomplishing in our hearts the 'circumcision made without hands" that makes it effective.

We are justified by grace, through faith, not of ourselves.

I have a question for you Richard. Did the man to whom Jesus applied mud on his eyes get healed of his blindness by “substituting acts of man”? He was obedient to Christ, and went to bathe in the pool as he was commanded. Did that make his own actions the source of his healing?

 

[guanophore]

Heb.10:16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
If we have to go threw some kind of purging fire, that’s not remembering our sins no more.

Clearly you are confused Richard. If what you were saying was true, then there would be no such thing as sanctification at all. However, this is not the case.

We are cleansed of our sins and purified BECAUSE we are forgiven and he has removed them from us. The preparation of our souls for heaven is a gift that is only given to the redeemed - those whose sins have been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

 If we have to pay anything, we have to pay it all.

No, Richard. Jesus paid the eternal consequence of our sins. Sometimes He allows us to suffer the temporal consequences, for our eternal benefit. This was the case with the thief who died next to him on the cross.

Heb10:10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You may notice that this is in the present active sense “being sanctified”. We are being made holy as we mature in Christ. This is the proces by which we are purified from sins.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And yet, we know that we are not perfect yet, are we?

Circumcision was a means of identifying one as a member of God’s chosen people in the flesh and required no profession of faith.

On the contrary the required profession of faith was made by the parents.

Baptism forgives nothing. It is our way of showing that we accept His death in place of ours.

Your denial of the facts does not change them.

Scripture testifies that your understanding is deficient.

 

[rinnie]

Actually, rinn, it is you! y saying that infant baptism is ordained, you are implying that these babies know exactly what is going on! Why don’t we just baptize all those who are unbelievers? Would they be saved, even without a profession of faith? Babies can’t make a confession of faith, can they?

Ask God lb. Or maybe I should ask you instead ? The bible says Gods knows the heart of everyone and know who are and are not his. Are you saying God does not know the heart of a child? I know he does. Scripture says that in order to be saved once must be washed with the blood of Christ. That is baptism for the forgiveness of sins. That is ONE of the many things they are needed to enter heaven. You seem to think that baptism is ALL that is needed to be saved. Scripture disagrees with you. I have showed you baptism is one of the things that is necessary for salvation. Jesus said go and baptise ALL.

If a baby is baptised that is the beginning of salvation not the end of it. Unless of course God calls that child into eternal life right away. Then yes that is all that is asked of us or that child in order to have eternal life in Christ.

Tell me lb what do you think makes people belivers in the faith? Would it not be the Holy Spirit entering into ones heart. Isn’t that what baptism is the seed that begins to live within you. Is it not that seed of the Holy Spirit that is either accepted in your heart and grows and does Gods work, or is it not the Heart that rejects the Holy Spirit and that soul dies in its sin. What does you faith teach? Does you faith teach that once one is baptised it cannot reject Gods love and sin and lose that Salvation that is given at Baptism?

In Catholic faith one is saved and free from sin at baptism. That soul is pure and can enter into eternal life with Christ until that soul sins. Then that soul must confess, repent and ask for forgiveness.

Again why would you reject the pouring of the Holy Spirit into a childs heart? I do not understand your teaching. Why would you not want the power of the Holy Spirit to enter a childs soul at the start of its life? Do you not believe that a child is capable of knowing Christ?

 

[rinnie]

To tell the truth, many on both sides have been guilty of blasphemy, in this forum! But it is borderline blasphemy to say that priests don’t have to be sinless to forgive other’s sins! That is if you believe that men can forgive sins

And it is clear lB that you reject the words of Christ. Tell me lB in Mark Jesus said to the paralytic child you sins are forgiven. The scribes said why does this MAN speak that way. He is blaspheming. Who but God alone can forgive sins? Jesus immediately knew in his mind what they were thinking to themselves so he said Why are you thinking such things in your hearts?

Here is the part I would like you to hear and then answer me. Jesus said But that YOU MAY KNOW that the SON OF MAN has the AUTHORITY to forgive sins on earth;;;;;;;;

Now lets stop right there. Do you in your heart really believe that Jesus was true God and TRUE MAN? IF you do, do you believe that Jesus had authority to forgive sins? If you do then why do you deny that authority that he gave to Man? So its as simple as this, you either believe that Jesus had the authority to forgive sins and passed it to the Apostles, or he never had the authority at all. You cannot continue to have it both ways.

If you read John 6:22-71 It will explain that we must eat the bread of life. This saying is hard who can accept it? Jesus said the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life but there are some of you who do not believe. I believe with my whole heart and soul. That is why I am Catholic. I know that the Eucharist is the actual body of Christ. Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would betray him.

Just like Jesus knows at the beginning of Baptism no matter if you are 3 days or 30 years old who are his and who are not. You and I do not seem to be on the same wave length of what God is capable of at all.

 

[rinnie]

And also lb you are correct in one thing. A priest must be in a state of grace to forgive sin. You are correct in that, he cannot be in a state of sin and give confession. That is why a Priest goes to confession many times in a week. Priests confess their sins to one another just like we do. They are human and also have sin, and also must confess that sin the same as we do. Just because they have the power to forgive sin in Gods name does not mean they cannot commit sin. The Pope actually goes to confession every single day!

 

[rinnie]

I’m going to tell my pastor that since he is our shepherd, and anointed and ordained(persona Christi, if you will) that he can forgive sins!

You pastor knows he cannot forgive sins. He does not have the laying of hands that must be passed down from the Apostles. If he was given this power from God he would exercise it.

 

[Bill_Pick]

We believe that we are born with the stain of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve, This is one reason that we believe in infant Baptism. Baptism washes away that stain. Also, there had to be infants and children among the thousands that were baptized according to Acts 2:41, and when Cornelius, his family, and friends were all baptized ( Acts 10:47-48). I hope you understand. God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

It is a baptism of forgiveness and then we get the Baptism of the Holy Spirit from John the Baptism at Confirmation,the Seal of the Spirit,a gift of the Father

 

[Loboto-Me]

Wow looks like I was pretty much attacked last night! Good thing it was just a light spanking I suppose I can understand since some people just don’t understand what Jesus meant.

Thank you for explaining further rinnie, jharek… Now I don’t have to

Rinnie, it seems that the priest doesn’t have to be in a state of grace in order to administer the sacraments

---

"Therefore a priest who is in a state of mortal sin should seek to confess as soon as possible and refrain from celebrating the sacraments until he has done so.

Normally, to celebrate Mass or receive Communion while in a state of mortal sin would be to commit a sacrilege. Yet, the sacrament would be valid; that is, there would be a true consecration and a true sacrifice.

The reason is: Christ is the principal actor of the sacraments, so they are efficacious even when performed by an unworthy minister. As St. Thomas Aquinas says: Christ may act even through a minister who is spiritually dead.

However, a priest who has fallen into mortal sin, but who is unable to make his confession despite his desire to do so, may celebrate Mass for the benefit of the faithful without adding a further sin of sacrilege.

Thus, as Canon 916 of the Code of Canon Law states: “A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible (see also Canon 1335).”

link here

ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur68.htm

But there you are right, it is best that they be in a state of grace

The main point is Persona Christi making it so that it is not the priest who is doing the forgiving, it is Jesus through the priest. But it’s also for grave reasons that this is allowed such as emergency for a penitent.

 

[adrift]

And also lb you are correct in one thing. A priest must be in a state of grace to forgive sin. You are correct in that, he cannot be in a state of sin and give confession. That is why a Priest goes to confession many times in a week. Priests confess their sins to one another just like we do. They are human and also have sin, and also must confess that sin the same as we do. Just because they have the power to forgive sin in Gods name does not mean they cannot commit sin. The Pope actually goes to confession every single day!

Oh runnie this is a heresy

Donatism. A fourth- and fifth-century African heresy holding that the validity of the sacraments depends upon the moral character of the minister of the sacraments and that sinners cannot be true members of the Church or even tolerated by the Church if their sins are publicly known. Donatism began as a schism when rigorists claimed that a bishop of Carthage, Caecilian (fl. ca. 313), was not a true bishop because he had been ordained by a bishop who had been an apostate under the Diocletian persecution. The Donatists ordained their own bishops, one of whom was Donatus, for whom the heresy is named. Donatism was condemned by Pope Miltiades (311-3 14) and by the (local) Council of Arles in 314, but it nevertheless persisted in North Africa until the Muslim conquest in the seventh century. The great St. Augustine (354-430) wrote extensively against Donatism

Your right on the rest though. Priest including the Pope go to confession and as you said the Pope every day.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m going to tell my pastor that since he is our shepherd, and anointed and ordained(persona Christi, if you will) that he can forgive sins!

Jesus Christ did not say your pastor was sent ,and your pastor does not have the authority

Catholic priests do not forgive sin,Jesus Christ is the one that forgive sin and NOT your pastor

 

[rinnie]

Oh runnie this is a heresy

Your right on the rest though. Priest including the Pope go to confession and as you said the Pope every day.

I don’t know man but I will check it out better next week. But I always thought that if a priest was in a state of sin he must do an act of contrition immediately before and then get to confession as soon as possible.

 

[rinnie]

You are right Adrift and I was wrong. I was just thinking it is not the Priest who performs the sacraments it is God working through them. My wrong:blush:

Boy did I blow that one