Purgatory

[Melek]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

 

[jrgiancola]

I don’t know but I wish they would. It’s never made any sense to me. The death and resurrection of Jesus atoned for every sin that was and would ever be committed. I also can’t agree with the ascetic line of thinking in our church. I don’t feel I need to practice any kind of asceticism to atone for my or any elses sins, for the same reason I just stated. Why can’t we just accept that salvation is a grace freely given by God by virtue of Jesus’ sacrifice, if we are just willing to accept it? There seems to be a lot of ancient doctrine, particularly the medieval stuff, that the church just won’t seem to let go. Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. I know he was a martyr also, but it seems to me that he got what he deserved. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. How can anyone who burned others at the stake become a saint? Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

 

[Mike_Dye]

Like It or not Purgatory exists. Just because we wish it didn’t has no consequence whatsoever. Having said that I really think that Purgatory is something we will freely chose. I also think that there are no gates on hell. The people that are in hell have freely made the choice to go there and would not and will not ever change their mind. The people in purgatory feel the same I believe. The example I like to use is; pretend a dignitary that you highly respected called you and invited you to a meeting and meal. When he called you were at work doing an especially dirty job, wouldn’t you want to rush home and clean up and make yourself presentable before you met with the person you admired? So much more I would want to clean myself up before I stood before God and asked for entrance to Heaven.
Granted , Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has paid the price for my sins but I still want to make sure all the residual effects of my sins are removed before I stand before my God.
Another thing to consider is that the people in Purgatory know that they have it made. They are going to heaven and nothing can change that. Period. While I would prefer going straight to heaven if I find myself in Purgatory I am a happy man.

 

[thistle]

I don’t know but I wish they would. It’s never made any sense to me. The death and resurrection of Jesus atoned for every sin that was and would ever be committed. I also can’t agree with the ascetic line of thinking in our church. I don’t feel I need to practice any kind of asceticism to atone for my or any elses sins, for the same reason I just stated. Why can’t we just accept that salvation is a grace freely given by God by virtue of Jesus’ sacrifice, if we are just willing to accept it? There seems to be a lot of ancient doctrine, particularly the medieval stuff, that the church just won’t seem to let go. Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. I know he was a martyr also, but it seems to me that he got what he deserved. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. How can anyone who burned others at the stake become a saint? Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

Pugatory is a dogma. A Catholic who rejects this is a heretic.

 

[Seatuck]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

No, we all undergo a personal judgment and then if Christ says we are fit we will undergo a cleansing to remove all stains of sin. As we know ,scripture says nothing unclean will enter heaven. So, we need to get cleaned up. All this happens due to what Christ did for us on the cross. This is just how it is applied individually to us.

Read the passage in the Catechism-

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm

 

[EmeraldWings]

purgatory is in the bible…many places in the bible we are told to “Pray for the dead” and isn’t it sad that there are so few praying for them just because purgatory “Doesn’t make sense”…

it is a dogma of faith though, as someone else mentioned, so we have to believe it, even if we don’t understand, but maybe you shouldn’t think of it as a “teaching of the Church” but instead a teaching of the Holy Ghost, because it is truly from Him that we are taught this dogma, since the Holy Ghost is truly the Author of the Bible.
i’m not trying to say that there is a difference between the teachings of God and the teachings of the church, God guides His church after all, but all i’m trying to say is to try and have the mind set, that these dogmas and doctrines are not just made up by man alone, they are inspired by God Himself, and that is how we must look at it.

here is an excellent article on the Doctrine of purgatory by Saint Francis de Sales -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=14893683
He says purgatory exists…how can we argue with a doctor of the church? d:

the reason purgatory exists(for one) is because when we die, we are not just instantly perfect, we still have the stain of sin on our soul, which needs cleaned, and we most likely also still have sins that have not been satisfied for,
although there are exceptions, like those who had special devotions promising them they would not have to suffer purgatory, or atleast not for very long, or those who receive plenary indulgences properly,

if you don’t understand purgatory, or if you don’t understand why we must suffer that way or what good comes out of suffering…well, that’s no good excuse to just dismiss the belief altogether, if you have a lack of understanding in something, then the answer is to ask God for help in understanding, and just read up on it, *try *to understand,
that article i gave is enough to convince you if you’re willing,

well, i g2g so that’s all for now, hope this help, tc.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Rumor has it that the Catholic Church stopped teaching the concept of Purgatory. Is this true?

Is it possible to show us the source of this rumour ? … I’m wondering if you might be confusing the dogma of Purgatory with the concept of Limbo.

 

[jrgiancola]

I don’t believe any of what’s been written so far. The Bible does not speak of Purgatory. I don’t pray for the dead. Rather, I pray to the dead in heaven, asking them to pray for me. As for dogma, it it’s not an ex cathedra pronouncement by the Pope, then it is not an infallible teaching. It was once a dogma of the church that the sun revolved around the earth. This was not infallible, and later proved to be false. God save us from lunatic, fanatic heretic hunters.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I don’t believe any of what’s been written so far. The Bible does not speak of Purgatory. I don’t pray for the dead. Rather, I pray to the dead in heaven, asking them to pray for me. As for dogma, it it’s not an ex cathedra pronouncement by the Pope, then it is not an infallible teaching. It was once a dogma of the church that the sun revolved around the earth. This was not infallible, and later proved to be false. God save us from lunatic, fanatic heretic hunters.

With respect, you need to study the teachings of the faith you profess to ‘accept.’ You do not have a correct understanding of what is meant by infallibility. If you check the Catechism of the Catholic Church (don’t just take my word for it, please go right to the source) you will find that ‘infallible teachings’ are NOT limited to ‘ex cathedra pronouncements by the Pope’. Furthermore, it was NEVER a ‘dogma’ that the sun revolved around the earth. If you believe that it was, you are sadly mistaken. The Church does not make dogmatic teachings about cosmologic phenomena!

I agree that we need protection from ‘lunatics and fanatics’. Of all kinds. We also need protection from those who only 'THINK" they know it all and in their zeal against ‘lunatics and fanatics’ unwittingly spread as much–and more- misinformation and incorrect ‘fact’ than those they rail against.

 

[NeedImprovement]

… Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. …

Could you please provide a link or name one whom he burned ? It’s a little off topic, but I kind of like Thomas More . I wasn’t aware he burned anyone. If he did, I’d like to learn more about it. I’m having to do a lot of mental gymnastics here.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Purgatory is a reality that the Church will never deny. Purgatory is a doctrine of the faith and all Catholics must believe in this truth. The poster on this thread who disbelieves in Purgatory should study the documents of the Church and read the Scriptures. All Catholics must believe in the truth of the existence of Purgatory. It is heresy to deny this doctrine of the faith.

 

[thistle]

I don’t believe any of what’s been written so far. The Bible does not speak of Purgatory. I don’t pray for the dead. Rather, I pray to the dead in heaven, asking them to pray for me. As for dogma, it it’s not an ex cathedra pronouncement by the Pope, then it is not an infallible teaching. It was once a dogma of the church that the sun revolved around the earth. This was not infallible, and later proved to be false. God save us from lunatic, fanatic heretic hunters.

Wow. If you really are Catholic then your education is sadly lacking about our faith and the Church teachings. Have you ever actually read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here is the Church teaching which you are BOUND to accept:

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

CCC 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

 

[Melek]

Is it possible to show us the source of this rumour ? … I’m wondering if you might be confusing the dogma of Purgatory with the concept of Limbo.

I might be. What’s Limbo?

 

[Churchmouse]

I don’t know but I wish they would. It’s never made any sense to me. The death and resurrection of Jesus atoned for every sin that was and would ever be committed. I also can’t agree with the ascetic line of thinking in our church. I don’t feel I need to practice any kind of asceticism to atone for my or any elses sins, for the same reason I just stated. Why can’t we just accept that salvation is a grace freely given by God by virtue of Jesus’ sacrifice, if we are just willing to accept it? There seems to be a lot of ancient doctrine, particularly the medieval stuff, that the church just won’t seem to let go. Another example is the sainthood of Thomas More. The man burned Protestants at the stake. I know he was a martyr also, but it seems to me that he got what he deserved. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. How can anyone who burned others at the stake become a saint? Now John-Paul2, that’s different. Obviously the man was a saint. We were lucky to have him in our lifetime.

Wow!! This is refreshing. Years ago, growing up in the Catholic Church, purgatory was one of those doctrines that scared the hell out of me (pun intended). The priests and nuns at my school (this was the mid-60s) emphasized purgatory as the realm, state, place (take your pick) that the overwhelming majority of us would go through. Many believed that it would be worse than the hell of the damned, but that the grace of Christ would solace us throughout the purgation. Like I said, it scared me and knowing that we didn’t know when we were to be “released” (with allowances for any absence of time as we know it) made me shudder all the more. One day, one of our elderly priests, who had been newly addressed a monsignor, held a session with us. Everyone asked questions on various subjects and he did his best to answer. After the session, after we gathered for his benediction, I went up to him and voiced my fear. To my surprise, he told me that he didn’t believe in purgatory either. He too believed in praying for the dead, but as a blessing, and not effacaciously, as for those in an alleged purgatory. Yes, considering the dogmatic status given to purgatory by the Roman Catholic church, I guess he would’ve been censured or something had they had known, but as time passed, I too gave up on that notion (as a Catholic) and I knew others like me. As an adult, I researched purgatory and it’s roots, only to find purgatory to be a theoretical innovation and that prayer for the dead were mostly done in refrigerium (a term that denotes a refreshing). None of this was done with a purgatory in mind.

Thanks for your honesty.

CM

 

[EmeraldWings]

you are trusting to much in your own intelligence and in a priest who doesn’t even hold a candle to the intelligence of this Saint and doctor of the church who explains purgatory quite soundly -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=14893683
don’t take that as an attack at your priest though, even my priest doesn’t hold a candle to this saint, and he’s the smarted priest i’ve met…so don’t take that personal.

if you’re living your life the way God tells you to, then purgatory is nothing to fear, and even pain is nothing to those in purgatory compared to the immense joy they have for knowing they will be in heaven with God,
you should also keep in mind, that the pope is the authority in our church on matters of doctrine, and he is infallible in church teachings, so if you want to put your trust in anyone, put it in him, because when you put your trust in the pope, you are actually putting your trust in the Holy Ghost, who is guiding and inspiring him.

to help you understand, here is the page on purgatory, which explains it quite simply and clearly, from the book called “A brief catechism for adults” -

Lesson 12: Purgatory

• “And the day following Judas [Machabeus] came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: So that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought Him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Machabees 12:39-46)*

** 1. What is Purgatory?**
A place and state of temporary punishment in the next world. Hell, on the other hand, is a place of eternal or everlasting punishment.

** 2. What does the word “Purgatory” mean?**
It means “cleansing” (or “purging”). Purgatory is a place where the soul is cleansed of unforgiven venial sin and/or the “debt” of sins already forgiven but not yet made up for.

•      "If any one abide not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth."    (John 15:6)*

**
3. How do you know there is a Purgatory?**
The constant teaching and practice of the Catholic Church, based on the Bible and tradition, and even common sense, prove the existence of Purgatory.

** 4. How does common sense indicate the existence of Purgatory?**
Only people with mortal sin go to Hell, and on the other hand, no one can enter Heaven with even the smallest sin. Therefore, there must be a place in the next world where lesser sins can be taken off the soul.

** 5. Who will go to Purgatory?**
People who die with Sanctifying Grace in their souls, but –
1. who die with venial sin on their souls, or
2. who have not completed (satisfied for) the punishment still due to their already forgiven sins.
**
6. What is meant by the “punishment still due to sin”?**
This means that, even though God forgives your sins, He still requires that you be punished for them (i.e. “pay” for them), either in this life or in the next.

      For example:  A boy playing ball in his yard breaks his neighbor's window.  He goes and tells the lady he is sorry, and she forgives him but she tells him he will still have to pay for the window.

** 7. Do you suffer in Purgatory?**
Yes. Besides not being allowed to see God face to face, the souls in Purgatory suffer a great deal.

      "The fire of Purgatory", says St. Augustine, "is more terrible than man can suffer in this life."

** 8. How long will you have suffer in Purgatory?**
That depends on the number and seriousness of the sins to be atoned for.

•      "My soul hath thirsted after the strong living God; when shall I come and appear before the face of God."    (Psalm 41:3)*

**
9. Where do you go when you leave Purgatory?**
To Heaven to see God and enjoy Him forever.
*
“Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not come out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.” (Matthew 5:26)*

** 10. Will Purgatory ever end?**
Yes, at the Last Judgment. After that all souls will be in either Heaven or Hell forever.

** 11. Can you help the souls in Purgatory?**
You can shorten their stay by having Masses said for them, by praying for them and by doing good works for them.

•      "Have pity on me, have pity on me, at least you my friends, because the hand of the Lord hath touched me."    (Job 19:21)*

** 12. Does the Bible say anything about praying for the dead?**
Yes. We read that Judas Machabeus, “sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifices to be offered for the sins of the dead.” (2 Machabees 12:43)
**
13. How can you avoid Purgatory?**
Avoid even the smallest faults, do penance for sins already forgiven, gain indulgences and receive Extreme Unction

ok, thats all, hope this helps you.

 

[Vincent]

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Savior. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgment. **Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. **

All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.

In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion.

**At the moment of judgment we experience and **we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. **The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. **

Pope Benedict XVI
Encyclical* Spe Salvi*​

 

[Churchmouse]

you are trusting to much in your own intelligence and in a priest who doesn’t even hold a candle to the intelligence of this Saint and doctor of the church who explains purgatory quite soundly -
gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=14893683
don’t take that as an attack at your priest though, even my priest doesn’t hold a candle to this saint, and he’s the smarted priest i’ve met…so don’t take that personal.

Maybe I confused you, but I’m not a Catholic. I offered a story that happened to me when I was Catholic long ago. Although I admire your tenacity in giving me Francis de Sales on the subject, yet I learned long ago that men are fallible, including de Sales. And just because de Sales says something is right doctrine, it doesn’t mean it is. Even though he is considered a “doctor” of the Roman Catholic church, it doesn’t therefore follow that all should trust his teachings. He may be highly regarded by you and others, but to me he is just a fallible man.

CM

 

[EmeraldWings]

Maybe I confused you, but I’m not a Catholic. I offered a story that happened to me when I was Catholic long ago. Although I admire your tenacity in giving me Francis de Sales on the subject, yet I learned long ago that men are fallible, including de Sales. And just because de Sales says something is right doctrine, it doesn’t mean it is. Even though he is considered a “doctor” of the Roman Catholic church, it doesn’t therefore follow that all should trust his teachings. He may be highly regarded by you and others, but to me he is just a fallible man.

CM

i see…well i’m sorry that you have decided to leave the only church founded by Christ Himself, which He promised that He would one day return to, and that hell would never prevail against it…
i’m gunna take a guess here and assume you only attended the novus ordo mass?
i go to the tradtional Latin mass of the fssp…and i really can’t be happier, i’ve learned so much after joining it, and i can really see from the mass i use to attend, how someone can stay so ignorant in their faith and want to leave, there is nothing beautiful about the new mass, it’s plain and boring and modern, and pretty much focuses on man and not God…
of course i can’t say every novus ordo mass is that way, but every one i’ve attended was…plus every one i’ve heard of…
we’ve actually brought protestants to our church, and they really loved it, even the sermons they thought were really good, i don’t think i’ve ever heard a boring(or short) sermon from any of the fssp priests, they’re always interested and informative and often moving,

well anyways, moving on…
men may err, but men who live completely for God and abandon themselves completely have God living in them and directing them, and i do not give credit to men but to God, men are nothing and have nothing of their own but their free will, all God needs is a willing soul in order to live and work in and through them.
Saint Francis was nothing more then a willing soul, willing to live for God and by God, he was a tool used and nothing more, of course i have respect and honor for him, after all he served God far better and more then i have or could even hope to(although i *should *hope to), but all knowledge and wisdom and goodness truly come from God alone, and we have no right to take credit for it.

if that work of Saint Francis does not interest you, try this -
goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy.html
i can’t force you to read it, but i hope you do…

and one more thing, “de sales” only means “of sales” which is where saint Francis is from…just wanted to mention that…

 

[hellopeople]

Pugatory is a dogma. A Catholic who rejects this is a heretic.

!!!

 

[Pug]

I don’t pray for the dead. Rather, I pray to the dead in heaven, asking them to pray for me. As for dogma, it it’s not an ex cathedra pronouncement by the Pope, then it is not an infallible teaching.

The intercessions at mass are those prayers that they read off a card that each end up with the line “we pray to the Lord” and the congregation says “Lord hear our prayer”. Do you not pray along with the congregation? Those have a line in there where you pray for the recently decreased people of the parish.

Just as a note, the word “infallible” does not only apply a few things the pope has said himself. It applies to certain things from councils as well, for example. Stuff like the meaning of the incarnation, about Jesus and answering people’s questions about if he was God or man or both or neither, etc.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 890

…Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms

then read 891 and 892 to see the ways.