Purgatory

[adstrinity]

I got a Protestant saying it’s an invention of Augustines around 350. I’m gonna tell him to check out Ignatious & Irenaeus. Can anybody tell me of any others who said things about it BEFORE 350? Thank you much!! All help needed ASAP!!

 

[Fidelis]

It’s important to point out to your friend that, just like “Trinity,” even though the word Purgatory hasn’t always been with us, the acceptance of the concept has been there since the beginning of Christianity. If you haven’t already shared with him or her the biblical, historical and reasonable evidence, go here:

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

After that, show them the witness of the Early Church Fathers, much of it before the year 350 AD.

The Roots of Purgatory
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

Don’t let them get you hung up on the word itself. That the Church has always accepted the concept is abundantly clear.

 

[gardenswithkids]

The Jewish Maccabees prayed for the dead even before Christ. If your friend is Protestant, he probably won’t accept this as from the Bible, but he should at least recognize ancient writing that refers to prayers for the dead.
He took up a collecton amoung all his soliders, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice…Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. 2nd Mach 12:43, 46

Also, Jesus condemns the Pharisees for a number of things, but he never reproved the Jews for their belief in a middle state or praying for the dead. (paraphrased from Faith of the Fathers by Cardinal Gibbons-- Great book with lots of stuff on this.)

Borrowing more arguments from that book,
St. Paul writes in about a fire that shall try every man’s work in I Cor 3:13-15

Tertullian, who lived in the second century says "the faithful wife will pray for the soul of her deceased husband, paricularly on the anniversay day of his falling asleep (death).

St. Ambrose who proceed Augustine and helped in his conversion wrote on the death of some Emperors “Blessed shall both of you be, if my prayers can avail anything…” He offered prayers for the dead.

I hope this helps. I see someone else posted some links also. If you manage to convince your friend, help them develop a devotion to the Holy Souls in Purgatory.

 

[Genesis315]

After you answer him send him to his Protestant forum with this: “I’ve got a Catholic friend who says Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide were invented by Martin Luther around 1517.”

 

[adstrinity]

Genesis315:

After you answer him send him to his Protestant forum with this: “I’ve got a Catholic friend who says Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide were invented by Martin Luther around 1517.”

You know, when I didn’t see a reply to this in 5 mins (I needed it ASAP, I looked online at New Advent. I want to tell you what I found & I want to share with you the reply that I got. I’ll show you all the entire conversation. I was upset afterward, and, I figured it was because I was proud. I went to Eucharistic Adoration (& chaplet of Divine Mercy) and afterwards I felt MUCH better!! I am uneasy now. I have not logged on to msn because I don’t want to deal with this guy. I don’t like arguing with him (and, I feel he always tries to turn things into an arguement) because he cannot see the other side for ANYTHING!! I don’t like to feel this way, but, I’m not sure, for a Christian, if he is showing humility & charity. I suspect he’s not. I want to show you the last conversation we had. (I have been blocking this guy for a while JUST because we always argue & I HATE him thinking that he’s right & I’m wrong (my pride there). He also has a blog & he may say bad things about Catholics in his opinions there (I know, let him say such). I just don’t want the truth to be smugged. He goes to NWC in MN…a “Bible” College.)

Here is (part of) the convo – Any & ALL advice on how to handle this guy & what to do appreciated.

 

[adstrinity]

him:
hey, do Catholics really view the Pope as infallible?

me:
Infallible, yes. IMPECABLE: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! (Do you understand the difference?)

him:
negative

me:
Okay, it’s like this, matter of faith & morals, he declares what IS true. This is not an easy task & it’s not like he does this on a whim. I don’t believe PJPII made any ex cathedra (“from the chair”, i.e., infallible) statements. Impecable means that he is always right, no matter what. Infallible is only church doctrine & dogma…not discipline.

me:
…or, any other matter…like, this past , with good reason, was against the Iraqi war, BUT, he didn’t say that we would be damned if we went to war, just that he could see no good coming from this. Also, if he predicted his favourite soccer team winning & it didn’t, this would really apply to Church teaching.

me:
May I suggest some reading for you?

him:
no

him:
haha

him:
the Pope really has nothing to do with my beliefs, so I’m not exactly jumping at the heels to learn the intricated details of what he does

me:
No, but, as far as “Do Catholics really…” christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/?item_no=8705533&p=1010575

him:
haha, one of the books has a funny name

him:
the subtitle is “The attack on Romanism by Bible Christians…”

him:
I don’t think it’s a great idea to say people who don’t agree with you are using the Bible to disagree with you

him:
I suppose that title barely beat out “How God’s Word Refutes Our Beliefs”

him:
haha

me:
Well, they are MISusing it, understand.

him:
yeah… that Luke verse about Purgatory where my interpretation accurately fits must be wrong

me:
What verse again?

me:
I don’t believe that we ended that.

him:
like Luke 12:58 or something like that

me:
I actually own that book. Another good read!! Suggest you read these things before you comment.

him:
I read the title and made fun of the title

him:
haha, I say fair game

him:
or am I required to read the entire book before commenting on the title of it?

me:
Ohhhhhhhhh…see, just reading that, I didn’t get it. Glad you explained.

 

[adstrinity]

him:
ok, so with this Luke verse, I believe your explanation was that Jesus goes off on a random tangent and makes a bad analogy vs my interpretation which fits the context of the verses right before it and explains the analogy entirely

me:
Wait. If you note, both “Romanism” & “Bible Christians” are quoted…the author meant something else.

him:
haha

me:

Oh.

me:
That one.

me:

Yeah, but, that is YOUR interpretation on it…the early Christians do not share your views.

him:

yeah, but how effective of a title do you think it would be if I named a political book “Conservative beliefs against liberals who use facts”

me:
But, that’s not the point of it.

me:

Look at it.

me:

The quotes. “Romanism” is not what we do. We do not worship Rome. “Bible Christians” is misleading because that would imply that some who ARE Christian do not rely on the Bible.

him:

oh geez

him:
I know what he meant

me:

I see your point. I truly do.

him:

I wasn’t thinking anybody worshipped Rome, I just thought it was a stupid title

him:

you can refrain from stating the blatantly obviuos to me

me:

It’s funny to you because of the wording & what you know.

me:

I’m not sure I can.

him:

I know you’re used to dealing with liberals on the U2 board

him:

but I can actually think

me:

Ah.

him:

my point still stands… they could have made a much better title

 

[adstrinity]

him:

and as for your comment about the early Christians believing that verse in Luke meant Purgatory… let me tell you, the ones who did were wrong

me:

Oh, REALLY!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

him:

and as we know from Paul’s letters to churches, “early Christians” weren’t exactly all on the right track

me:

Not saying it’s because of that verse, it’s just saying that they did.

him:
that they believed in Purgatory?

me:
But, these are what the Christians got from the teachings of St. Paul & the rest of the Apostles (the things NOT written down in the Bible, but, continued through oral teachings). YES!!! Study the early church, [his name here]!!!

me:

From 90-325.

me:

There’s a few writtings out.

me:

I say cease at 325 because some Protestants believe that is when Constantine corrupted Church teachings.

him:

you do realize Paul was dead before 90ad right?

me:

I do.

me:

But, John was still alive, right?

me:

Basically, what I’m saying, is when the Cannon was closed…after the death of the last Apostle.

him:

I’m not sure the exact date of his death, but he was in exile for a while towards the end

me:

Yeah, but, what is common belief of his death now? Isn’t it 90-95?

 

[adstrinity]

him:

I’m not sure

me:

I don’t suppose your Minister-In-Training friend is online right now.

him:

nope

him:

I’ve just checked my two history books that deal with church history… apparently St. Augustine was one of the originators of the doctrine of purgatory

him:

that’s circa 350AD if you want a date to reference

me:

I assue you this is not the case. Check out the Church before then. Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage. These are the ones, I believe, who come BEFORE 350 AD mentioning their belief in it. And, also, I have other things about it AFTER 350…Augustine doesn’t come into the picture as a Christian until 386. He wasn’t even born until 354.

him:

either way, isn’t it odd that NONE of their writings are in The Bible?

me:

No, not really.

me:

Cannon was closed at the death of the last apostle.

me:

Why would these people be in the Bible?

me:

The Church held councils JUST for this point. WHAT is inspired & what is not…there’s other works out there around this time…simply not inspired.

him:

that’s a pathetically weak argument

me:

HERE’S the thing AND this will ALWAYS be the thing. I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura.

 

[adstrinity]

him:

if they were inspired text, they would have been included

me:

No, it’s not a weak argument.

him:

it’s a horrible argument

me:

If you don’t believe that the cannon was closed at the death of the last apostle, become JW or a LSD.

me:

Because you’re losing? ]

him:

“well, they may be right, but since nobody wanted to add them they weren’t included”

him:

no, because it’s ridiculously stupid

me:

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m sorry if that’s what you’re hearing, but, that’s not what I’m saying.

 

[adstrinity]

me:

*LDS.

him:

become a JW?? haha, it’s not me misunderstanding you, apparently I’ll have to talk at a lower level and connect all the dots for you

him:

I’m not saying the cannon wasn’t closed

him:

I’m saying that’s a stupid argument as to why another text that was divinely inspired wouldn’t be included

me:

Hmmmm…what makes something divinely inspired?

him:

and if the people you’re citing in the early church weren’t inspired, that means they can be… WRONG

him:

by the way, I just found some verse in II Corinthians that requires a pretty allegorical interpretation to be about Purgatory… yet that’s how it’s cited

me:

Indeed they can and oftimes were, but, not in this case. The Church has always taught it because God breathed the Holy Spirit onto His Apostles and promised Peter that the Gates of Hell would never prevail against 's Church.

him:

here’s the problem with that statement…

him:

it’s completely irrelevant

him:

I mean, what the heck are you responding to?

 

[adstrinity]

him:

or are you just talking?

me:

It’s like this. Yes, Humans, ALL those you mentioned WERE OFTEN TIMES wrong. There’s no disagreement with that. BUT, they are not in and of themselves, the teaching of the Church. No error CAN be taught by the Church as a whole. SO! If the Church taught about Purgatory back in the year 112, then, lied…which he is not capable of doing. AND, this also goes back to your question about in

me:

fallibility. BUT, right now, I’m being called to dinner. We’ll talk about this later.

him:

oh my gosh, I think I need to teach you basic logic

him:

you’re saying there is no possible way that the Christian faith could have been influenced and started to bring in false teachings by the year 112??

him:

Do you know why Paul wrote all those letters??

him:

because the churches were teaching WRONG doctrine

him:

and that was very shortly after the death of Jesus

him:

haha, to say there’s no possible way Purgatory could have been made up in that time is ridiculous

him:

I guess, given a choice between The Bible and the early church leaders… I’ll side with what the Bible teaches

---- And that’s where it ended. Like I said, I know how to refute this argument as well, BUT, he never ceases to amaze me to come up with something I have not heard before concerning why the CC is wrong. It would be easier just to go to the Bible, I know, BUT, I KNOW the Bible wasn’t around that far back in the day. Anyway, helpful advice needed all ye Catholics on here. What should I do, how should I handle this? Should I just block him & let him think he’s won & that he’s right & just pray for him? ------

 

[Catholic_Tom]

I say if he’s truly interested in learning, invite him here. If he asks charitably, he will be answered in the same manner.

 

[gardenswithkids]

adstrinity:

Anyway, helpful advice needed all ye Catholics on here. What should I do, how should I handle this? Should I just block him & let him think he’s won & that he’s right & just pray for him? ------

I think I’d just let this guy know you’re praying for him, pray for him and leave it go. I usually assume that Protestants who evangelize Catholics are sincerely concerned for our souls, but I don’t sense that here.

By the way, if you don’t already have a devotion to the Holy Souls in Purgatory, maybe you can spend the time you would have spent with this guy praying for them! Once they’re in heaven, perhaps they could work some miracles to convert your friend/aquaintance to Catholicism. I can’t see anything short of a miracle breaking through to him.

 

[arcturus]

And that’s where it ended. Like I said, I know how to refute this argument as well, BUT, he never ceases to amaze me to come up with something I have not heard before concerning why the CC is wrong. It would be easier just to go to the Bible, I know,

That’s the dilemma. A lot of the CC has to be buttressed by tradition and the teachings of the magisterium, something your average Protestant won’t accept as authoritative. It’s sort of like trying to debate a Jewish person about Jesus being the Messiah using the NT, when all he will accept is the Old Testament.

 

[MariaG]

It would be fine if he had the complete Bible, then you could point to Maccabes. Why are there prayers for the dead? Purgatory is biblical, Martin Luther didn’t like it and it was one of the reasons he threw out Maccabes from the Bible.

From CA library catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, **Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine. **

 

[m4dc4p]

Wow, reading that conversation log made me kind of mad. He was really not very nice to you. Especially belitting your logical abilities.

His main argument seemed to be the early Church Fathers just got it wrong, and that Paul’s letters are all about correcting early false teachings. I’d say there are several problems with that argument.

If the Church Fathers got it wrong, how do you guarntee they got the Bible right? Cause that’s who put the Bible together - it didn’t just appear out of whole cloth!!! If the Bible is inerrant, and the Church put together the Bible, but the Church teaches inerrantly, how did they put together an inerrant Bible? Luck? If you say the Holy Spirit guided them to put together the Bible, is God just mean because he didn’t guide them in teaching about Purgatory?

Secondly, I don’t think the bulk of the New Testament is about correcting false teachings. There seems to be a lot more to Paul’s letters than blasting heresies.

Don’t let this guy get you too riled up - “shake the dust of that town off your feet” and move on (very bad paraphrase, I know). You did extremely well in that conversation he was just talking right past you.

God Bless!

 

[adstrinity]

Thank you ALL who answered!!! You know, I was at the special Mass today (that I heard that they would have on the day the new Pope was elected) & I was getting all angry and just enraged at this kid (I have never met him…he’s 20 something and lives in a diff state) and kept thinking…“Hmmmm, this isn’t good…if I were to die right now, I wouldn’t get into Heaven bc of this” I think this kid just totally beat up my pride, (“Why isn’t he listening to ME!!!”), but, also, he was very uncharitable. (And, I HATE that the devils can get to you at Mass. ) I thank you ALL for the replies. I SOOOOOOOO want to tell him, via e-mail, “You’re WRONG, here’s why!! list” BUT, I know that should I do so, I shall have no recompensense in Heaven. (I would be doing it for the wrong reasons…not to bring him to Truth (though, I would try and be charitable about it), but, just to point out where he is inconsistant.) I thank you for all the replies (forgive me for I am tired). Anyway, the point I was making here, was that the priest said of Ratzinger that he made enimies because he was speaking the truth…THAT kinda made sense…

ANYWAY, again, I thank you all for replying. I definitely WILL pray for him (as I have been). It’s not even that he’s Protestant, you know? It’s the lack of charity that he has. I mean, you shall know a tree by it’s fruits. He SAYS he’s Christian…and this is what he does?:crying: It occured to me that this guy has a HUGE pride problem…and THAT will be dangerous…and, even though I WANT God to TOTALLY make him suffer, I know, that is uncharitable of me, and THAT will be dangerous for me. This guy DOES need my prayers & I remember that St. Paul was a particularly proud anti-Catholic, and, God made him one of the best Catholics ever. I don’t doubt miracles. St. Monica prayed for 20 years for the conversion of her son (who began instituting the doctrine of Purgatory in 350, for all of you paying attention. ) and he’s one of the OTHER best Catholics.

Also, thank you, gardenswithkids…I think I shall do the whole souls in Purgatory thing. I have been meaning to. Just like, I’ve always wondered “What is the Chaplet of Divine Mercy?” and yesterday, at Eucharistic adoration (I needed to get my mind off of this incident), a woman came up to me and asked me if I knew (she saw me holding my glow-in-the-dark rosary, I guess) it & I said I don’t think so & she gave me a prayer card with it and told me it’s “AWEsome!!” …That made me feel SO much better…but, anyway, souls in Purgatory…yes.

ALL OF YOU WHO ANSWERED…Thank you yet again!!! God bless you and Mary keep you!!!