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doke
Guest
Where did the church come up with the idea of purgatory. Does it say anything about it in the bible? If not, i do not think man has the right to say what they think God does when you die.
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Scoobyshme
Guest
The Catholic Church does not claim the right to speak for God. It has the responsibility to pass on what God (Christ) has given it with regard to His truths. The Church also doesn’t claim the right to change any of the truths passed on to it from Christ through the Apostles and their successors, the bishops.
Keep in mind that not everything Jesus did or taught is IN the Bible (see John 21:25). Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles (and their successors, the bishops) to pass on everything He had taught them, etc. (See Matt. 28:20). So, if everything is not IN the Bible, but we are to be taught everything, where’s the rest?! In Holy Tradition, a.k.a., Oral Tradition, as St. Paul talks about in 2 Thes. 2:15. Oral teaching (Oral Tradition or Holy Tradition) preceded the New Testament. This makes sense, since most folks for the first 18 centuries or so of Christianity could neither read nor write. And the Bible says that faith comes from “hearing” not “reading.”
So, back to Purgatory, this is a doctrine that is found in the Bible and in Holy Tradition.
You may be interested in viewing a free video on “Origins of the Bible” at the following link:
alabamacatholicresources.com/Bible.html
Keep in mind that not everything Jesus did or taught is IN the Bible (see John 21:25). Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles (and their successors, the bishops) to pass on everything He had taught them, etc. (See Matt. 28:20). So, if everything is not IN the Bible, but we are to be taught everything, where’s the rest?! In Holy Tradition, a.k.a., Oral Tradition, as St. Paul talks about in 2 Thes. 2:15. Oral teaching (Oral Tradition or Holy Tradition) preceded the New Testament. This makes sense, since most folks for the first 18 centuries or so of Christianity could neither read nor write. And the Bible says that faith comes from “hearing” not “reading.”
So, back to Purgatory, this is a doctrine that is found in the Bible and in Holy Tradition.
You may be interested in viewing a free video on “Origins of the Bible” at the following link:
alabamacatholicresources.com/Bible.html
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dogknox
Guest
YES… Purgatory is in the Bible!
It is mentioned in the Old and the New Testaments…
EXAMPLE. below the, New testament.
The Rich Man and Lazarus…
The Rich Man ended up in “The Abode of the Dead”! He ended up in “Shoal” NOT “Gehenna”! Gehenna is the place for Satan and his demons! IF…
If the Rich Man was in “Gehenna”, Satan would be his** Father**… NOT Abraham!
IF…
If the Rich Man was in “Gehenna” Abraham would NOT call the Rich Man…:“SON”!
Luke 16:19
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him**, ‘Father** Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 "But Abraham replied,** 'Son**, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
doke No one can cross… BUT Jesus is just not anyone… Jesus is GOD! When the Rich man is sanctified, by the fires… He will be able to cross… he will be IN Jesus! Jesus CAN cross!
27 "He answered, ‘Then I beg you,** father,** send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 "Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 " ‘No, **father **Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 "He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "
doke IF the Rich Man was in Gehenna… he would be full of Hate… He would not have any concerns for his brothers. The Rich Man had COMPASSION, he showed LOVE for his brothers!
There is ZERO… Love in Gehenna!!! There is only pure HATE!
The Rich Man was NOT with Satan in Gehenna! AND…
The Rich Man was NOT in heaven…** YET**!!
Dogknox
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Pax
Guest
doke in Christ,
Purgatory is in scripture. The following is based upon a presentation by John Martignoni.
2 Sam 12:13-18
Revelation 21:27
Matthew 5:48
Hebrews 12:22-23
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
Matthew 12:32
Matthew 18:23-35
Revelation 20:12-15
Some verses in scripture simply make no sense in a heaven and hell only theology.
James 5:20
1 Peter 4:8
Colossians 1:24
I hope this helps.
Purgatory is in scripture. The following is based upon a presentation by John Martignoni.
2 Sam 12:13-18
There is punishment for Sin even after the sin has been forgiven
Revelation 21:27
Nothing unclean will enter heaven
Matthew 5:48
Because nothing unclean will enter heaven
Hebrews 12:22-23
There is a way that the souls of just men are made perfect
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
After death every man’s work will be tested by fire and he will suffer loss even though he has been saved.
Matthew 12:32
This implies forgiveness of sin or its punishment after death in the age to come.
Matthew 18:23-35
Where can you go after death that is like jail until you have paid all your debt? In heaven there is no need forgiveness. In hell there is no forgiveness.
Revelation 20:12-15
There is judgment after death for what we have done.
Some verses in scripture simply make no sense in a heaven and hell only theology.
James 5:20
If Jesus did everything that needed to be done for the forgiveness of sins then what can this verse mean? Unless there is punishment for sin even after sin is forgiven as in the case of David and Nathan.
1 Peter 4:8
Here it is again…something we do that covers a multitude of sins.
Colossians 1:24
Once again, something we do that in someway completes the work of Christ. Even though Christ’s redemptive work is sufficient for forgiveness, there is still punishment for a multitude of sins. Love and suffering cover a multitude of sins.
I hope this helps.
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doke
Guest
Thanks for the feedback everybody!
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Hope3
Guest
The Rich Man was a Jew. He would claim Abraham as his father.
Hades (abode of the dead) was located under the earth and it consisted of three places that we know of: Hell or Gehenna, Purgatory/Prison, and Limbo of the Patriarchs (also called bosom of Abraham).
The Rich Man was in Hell/Gehenna. If he was not in hell, then Jesus would not have used him as the evil example (condemned to wrath of God) to contrast with Lazarus as the good example (saved for eternal life).
There is a chasm/gulf which cannot ever be crossed once a person is condemned to be in hell. Only God can put a person in hell and He puts them there because they died without forgiveness of their mortals sins. They were not forgiven because they did not confess these mortal sins nor did they repent of them. Ezekiel 33:12-20, Matthew 10:28
Purgatory has people coming and going all the time: people going in after death to be purifed of their venial sins and people going out to enter into heaven after purification is finished. Matthew 5:25-26 It is called purgatory because our venial sins are purged from our souls by a cleansing fire. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, Hebrews 12:28-29
The only reason that the rich man wanted his brothers warned is because the rich man was a bad influence for them and if they do not repent before death, then the rich man will have to suffer more greatly in hell for his own part in their eventual individual condemnations. Matthew 18:6, 1 Corinthians 15:33
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dogknox
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I reply.…doke was asking for scripture…This is NOT the only place in the New testament… BUT it is still scripture about being Sanctified after death!
FIRST… your words…
I reply: The Apostles creed tells us… "Jesus descended into* Hell,** then rose again!!"*
The Early Church used the word…'Hell" to mean “The Abode of the dead”! It is the protestant that added the twisted meaning to encompass Hell/Gehenna together… “THEY REJECT Sanctification after death!”
SECOND:
I reply:
YES and…IF… The Man was in GEHENNA he would NOT claim Abraham as FATHER… Satan would be his father! AND…
And Abraham would never, ever claim the “Rich Man as SON”!!!
Abraham’s children will inherit a KINGDOM PROVING if Abraham did not think he was being SANCTIFIED he would not claim the Rich Man as Son!.. All Jews know this!!!
THIRD: Your words…
I reply.. AND… there is a Chasm/Gulf… No one can cross until they are SANCTIFIED by the flames of Purgatory! As pointed out, in by post… “Jesus can cross he is God and God CAN DO… all things!” When the Rich Man is PURGED he will CROSS over >>>“IN Jesus”!
FORTH: The man in Gehenna, will curse God… he will HATE Jesus… it will be the fault of Jesus, that he can’t die!
The man in Gehenna, will try all manner of ways to die to end his suffering, none will work! All he will end up doing is; increasing the suffering! Finally he will think…“I know; I will enter the Lake Of Fire, surely the Lake will kill me!”
He will on his own accord… no one will push him… He will walk out into the “Burning Lake” BUT…
But he will not die!
He will become One with Satin and the demons! He will meld… Merge with them, they will melt into ONE, becoming one white hot, burning ball of PURE HATE in the middle of the lake!
The Man in Gehenna has** HATE**… And only HATE they have zero …LOVE! The man in Gehenna only thinks of himself… No others!! The “Rich Man” had concern for his brothers…he was not only concerned with “SELF”!! PROVING… The Sanctification was starting to work, it was waking the man up to his selfishness and lack of love! The Brothers of the Rich Man were also going to be Purged they also would follow after him!
FIFTH: Your words…
I reply: And… Jesus had NOT yet opened the door! Jesus still had to die and rise again. he had to PREACH to those in “Shoal”!!
BUT… the Jews still believed in a type of Sanctification, and they all/most **had HOPE for salvation after death! **
FACT: The Rich Man was a Jew… Jesus was preaching to Jews!!!
PROOF…?
2 Maccabees - Chapter 12
44** For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,**
45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence,** he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.**
Dogknox
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Hope3
Guest
We will agree to disagree. The comments preceding the gospel in our Missalette for this past Sunday stated that the Rich Man was in hell (Gehenna). I agree.
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dogknox
Guest
YES:… Read line #5 below! Are you saying Jesus went to Gehenna???
(1) I believe in God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and earth
(2) And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord;
(3) Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary,
(4) Suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried;
(5) He descended into** hell**; the third day He rose again from the dead;
I point out… “The Early Church Father’s” wrote the Creed with the idea, "Hell" was the Abode of the dead!
It was the English Protestant in the eighteen hundreds…that twisted the meaning to mean… Gehenna!
The Protestant does not believe in Purgatory… so Hell can’t be heaven… it must mean Gehenna!
The scripture says… hell but… they also say, “A place of Torment”! The word, “Torment” to me seems a little weak of a word to describe Gehenna, don’t you think!
Would not… “A place of eternal fire” better describe Gehenna!?
Jesus’s words…Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
You can’t deny… "Abraham addressed the man as “SON”!!!
he would be a Child of the devil if he was to never leave his place!
Dogknox
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Third_Day
Guest
The Church has not dogmatically interpreted Luke 16. Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid both believe it is a reference to purgatory. Pope Benedict’s words on Luke 16 don’t really settle the issue. It seems to me that the rich man still had grace in his heart for his brothers and that could only mean he was in purgatory.
SPE SALVI Pope Benedict XVI
In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (cf. Lk 16:19-31), Jesus admonishes us through the image of a soul destroyed by arrogance and opulence, who has created an impassable chasm between himself and the poor man; the chasm of being trapped within material pleasures; the chasm of forgetting the other, of incapacity to love, which then becomes a burning and unquenchable thirst. We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgment, but is taking up a notion found, in early Judaism, namely that of **an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced. **45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.
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Hope3
Guest
If you choose to believe that the rich man is only in purgatory, that is okay. Like you said, there has been no “dogmatic” decision on this.
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dnar
Guest
Could you please share where Scott Hahn and Patrick Madrid have discussed this? Thanks.
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Church_Militant
Guest
From my blog. I had some help from a couple of Orthodox Jews. as you will see.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
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Third_Day
Guest
Patrick Madrid discuses this verse in his book on the communion of saints called Any Friend of God is a Friend of Mine
Scott Hahn discusses this verse in a series of talks ( aboiut 4 hours) that he gave. All of them are excellent. The one on the communion of saints is where he says Luke 16 refers to purgatory.
That can be donwloaded here. Scroll down and go to the mp3 audio of Scott Hahn’s Answering Common Objections
philvaz.com/apologetics/audio.htm
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James224
Guest
I gave this as an answer on another thread: 1 Cor 3:11-15 The wood, hay & stubble signify our works but notice in verse 15: “If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, yet so as BY FIRE.” Not his works but **HE **shall be saved by fire. The wood, hay and stubble are your works but YOU and your works go through the fire as shown above. Also, verse 13 says, “…For the day of the Lord shall declare it…” The Day of the Lord is the day of your death so this happens AFTER DEATH.
1 Pet 3:19 Jesus speaks to the spirits in PRISON. You see this “Prison” also in Matt 5:25-26. In Greek it’s Phulake or Phulaken. This is a spiritual prison. If you look at Mat 5 in context you will see that first Christ speaks of the souls that will be in heaven, then the souls of the damned and then those that will be in prison - so this is not a physical prison on earth. Notice in 1 Pet 3:19 and it’s after Christ’s descent into Hell.
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dogknox
Guest
I hope all is well…If you choose to believe that the rich man is only in purgatory, that is okay. Like you said, there has been no “dogmatic” decision on this.
I reply…
doke Purgatory is biblical…
The original question was…* Where did the church come up with the idea of purgatory. Does it say anything about it in the bible? *
AND…
And the answer is.."The Catholic Church came up with the idea of Purgatory from the scriptures… Both from the Old and the New testaments!
The “Rich Man” in a place of Torment is just ONE of many examples!
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JohnCS
Guest
All of these answers are wonderful. But for simple minded people like me, the call for common sense is enough to sell the idea of purgatory to me. It is really as simple as this:
God bless,
John
- In Scripture, we are told to pray for the dead. (Paul I think)
- Prayers won’t help souls in hell (Jesus says so)
- Souls in heaven don’t need our prayers. (They are in perfect harmony with God)
God bless,
John
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wjp984
Guest
The existence of Purgatory in some form or in some way just makes common sense.
What we do know is that nothing impure can enter Heaven. Likewise no sin can enter Heaven. Now we are all given free will to choose or reject Heaven and choose and reject sin. However, other than Mary, no person has gone their life free of sin.
So if you take what is known you are left with two possibilities after death:
More than anything I think that our own guilt for our sins would warrant a desire of Purgatory. It probably takes time even after death to understand the full extent of God’s mercy and fully choose Him and although feeling unworthy, trust that God loves us and wants us to be with Him in Heaven.
I don’t believe in any doctrine of Purgatory per se and this whole process may occurr instantaneously after death or even through suffering and sickness before death. But it just makes common sense to me that some process is necessary.
What we do know is that nothing impure can enter Heaven. Likewise no sin can enter Heaven. Now we are all given free will to choose or reject Heaven and choose and reject sin. However, other than Mary, no person has gone their life free of sin.
So if you take what is known you are left with two possibilities after death:
- Based on God’s judgement/mercy and our individual choice, one either ends up in a)Hell, in which case no adjustment is needed because you are in Hell or b) one ends up in Heaven in which case God needs to change us all individually and make us ready for Heaven and we would have no free will in this process. I have no idea how this process would occurr but something would need to happen where everyone is just made ready for Heaven instantaneously and therefore differetn than they were in their earthly lives.
- Purgatory in whatever form, state, or place, exists so that we can all free ourselves from our sinful nature and fully choose Heaven. We are conscious and aware of every point in the process and truly understand what is going on and are jouneying towards eternal happiness in Heaven.
More than anything I think that our own guilt for our sins would warrant a desire of Purgatory. It probably takes time even after death to understand the full extent of God’s mercy and fully choose Him and although feeling unworthy, trust that God loves us and wants us to be with Him in Heaven.
I don’t believe in any doctrine of Purgatory per se and this whole process may occurr instantaneously after death or even through suffering and sickness before death. But it just makes common sense to me that some process is necessary.
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Hope3
Guest
I hope all is well…
I reply…
doke Purgatory is biblical…
The original question was…* Where did the church come up with the idea of purgatory. Does it say anything about it in the bible? *
AND…
And the answer is.."The Catholic Church came up with the idea of Purgatory from the scriptures… Both from the Old and the New testaments!
The “Rich Man” in a place of Torment is just ONE of many examples!
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