Purgatory

[Vico]

So what is the Eastern Catholic view on Purgatory? Is it more Roman Catholic, or more Orthodox?

Since its All Souls Day, I guess its a good topic

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. …"

So since both Florence and Trent were after 1009 when the Pope was removed from the dyptichs of Constantinople, it is logical that purgatory is not a formulation of the Eastern Orthodox, yet the concept of purification after death is not incompatible, nor that we may help them with our prayers.

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them”
– St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:5.

“The apostles did not ordain, without good reason, a commemoration of the departed to be made during the celebration of the mysteries; for from it the deceased draw great gain and help. Why should our prayers for them not placate God, when besides the priest, the whole people stand with uplifted hands while the august Victim is presented on the altar? True, it is offered only for such as departed hence in faith.”
– St. John Chrysostom, Third Homily.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So since both Florence and Trent were after 1009 when the Pope was removed from the dyptichs of Constantinople, it is logical that purgatory is not a formulation of the Eastern Orthodox, yet the concept of purification after death is not incompatible, nor that we may help them with our prayers.

I get this part, what I was inquiring about is what Eastern Catholics believe. I mean its easy to say they believe what the Orthodox believe because they came from the Orthodox. But its just as easy to say that they believe what the Roman Catholics believe because its what the Catholic Church teaches and they follow the Pope now.

 

[Vico]

I get this part, what I was inquiring about is what Eastern Catholics believe. I mean its easy to say they believe what the Orthodox believe because they came from the Orthodox. But its just as easy to say that they believe what the Roman Catholics believe because its what the Catholic Church teaches and they follow the Pope now.

The Union of Brest, a (Polish) treaty, after which the Ukrainian and Belorusian Greek Catholic Churches existed included a statement #5: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church”. A similar union occurred in Hungary in the Union of Ungvar spawning the Slovak, Byzantine-Ruthenian, and Hungarian Greek Catholic Churches.

Efficacy of indulgences and purgatory are dogmas of the Catholic faith so they are not to be opposed by Eastern Catholics, regardless of the absence of the formulation using the same words in their traditions. Indulgences are also available (but not required to be used) to any Catholics of any Church sui iuris. But all Catholics pray for the souls of those fallen asleep in Christ.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Union of Brest, a (Polish) treaty, after which the Ukrainian and Belorusian Greek Catholic Churches existed included a statement #5: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church”. A similar union occurred in Hungary in the Union of Ungvar spawning the Slovak, Byzantine-Ruthenian, and Hungarian Greek Catholic Churches.

Efficacy of indulgences and purgatory are dogmas of the Catholic faith so they are not to be opposed by Eastern Catholics, regardless of the absence of the formulation using the same words in their traditions. Indulgences are also available (but not required to be used) to any Catholics of any Church sui iuris. But all Catholics pray for the souls of those fallen asleep in Christ.

Awesome!

 

[5Loaves]

I get this part, what I was inquiring about is what Eastern Catholics believe. I mean its easy to say they believe what the Orthodox believe because they came from the Orthodox. ** But its just as easy to say that they believe what the Roman Catholics believe because its what the Catholic Church teaches** and they follow the Pope now.

I hope you just wrote that too quickly and didn’t actually mean what that sentence seems to say…


Roman Catholics and “the Catholic Church” are not synonymous.

Eastern Catholics who follow the directives of Rome…follow the teaching of their mother church… eschewing all forms of Latinizations…INCLUDING purgatory. We are not only ALLOWED but encouraged to follow our own theology and traditions.

 

[Chris_Fuller]

Would you please provide a reference from scripture for evidence of Purgatory?

I have heard that Purgatory was adopted from Dante’s Inferno which the author intended as a book of fiction. Is that true?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I hope you just wrote that too quickly and didn’t actually mean what that sentence seems to say…


Roman Catholics and “the Catholic Church” are not synonymous.

I think what I meant and how you understood what I said is different. Let me clarify. The difficulty with most, even for Catholics is that when the Pope teaches something you understand it as the teaching of the entire Church rather than just the Roman Church. The comment I made is based on that perspective.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Would you please provide a reference from scripture for evidence of Purgatory?

I have heard that Purgatory was adopted from Dante’s Inferno which the author intended as a book of fiction. Is that true?

Chris, you can ask that question in the apologetics thread. This thread being in the Eastern Catholic forum is about the perspective of Eastern Catholics and whether they adhere to the Roman Catholic teaching of Purgatory or to the Orthodox teaching which believes in the same concept of Purgatory but did not define it the same way.

 

[Vico]

Would you please provide a reference from scripture for evidence of Purgatory?

I have heard that Purgatory was adopted from Dante’s Inferno which the author intended as a book of fiction. Is that true?

See James Akin:

ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

 

[Biedrik]

Would you please provide a reference from scripture for evidence of Purgatory?

I have heard that Purgatory was adopted from Dante’s Inferno which the author intended as a book of fiction. Is that true?

Nonsense. Purgatory predates Dante. That’s why he included it in the Divine Comedy, because it was a pre-existing part of his religion.

 

[StTommyMore]

Here is a piece I wrote on Purgatory.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

Dear Friends,

Purgatory was once popular during the Kyvian Baroque era in the Orthodox Church. St Peter Mohyla the Metropolitan used it in his Catechism of the Orthodox-Catholic Christian Church etc. And even when the Orthodox Patriarchs accepted his Catechism but ordered the term “purgatory” dropped from it, Mohyla continued to use it throughout his own metropolitanical jurisdiction.

Fr. .John Meyendorff (+ memory eternal!) in his popular book on Byzantine theology does mention several Greek Orthodox theologians who accepted Purgatory (and also the western version of Original Sin and the Immaculate Conception, for that matter, and who weren’t offended by the Filioque when they saw a “peace-loving pope on the Roman throne”).

The question then is - “Does Orthodoxy pray for the dead when it doesn’t accept purgatory?” The answer is a resounding “yes.”

Orthodoxy has a different eschatology than that of Rome. While rejecting indulgences, Orthodoxy DOES insist that after the confession of our sins, we are obliged to perform “works of repentance” such as prayer, fasting, almsgiving etc. for the purpose of healing our sinfulness and sinful inclinations as well as to repair the damage our sins have done in the Body of Christ etc. A medicinal effect rather than one of "satisfaction."

Those souls who haven’t sufficiently practiced works of repentance cannot be immediately united with God and Christ in the next world (full union will only really come at the Second Coming and after the Final Judgement).

The Church therefore prays for such souls, especially through the Divine Liturgy. Every Saturday, the Eastern Church, Orthodox and Catholic, prays liturgically for the dead, also during Lent, in November and at other times. For forty days after one’s repose, the Church will include that soul in daily Liturgies and the family and friends are expected to pray the psalms ceasely for the same intention. Then there is the half-year and then annual commemorations of the soul that has reposed.

Again, the Latin Catholic Church is entitled to her own canonical and theological traditions, including its definition of “purgatory.”

Without using such a definition, the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches continue their Apostolic liturgical tradition of assiduous prayer for the dead that “they may be loosed from their sins.”

Alex

Thank you for your explanation of the section that I put in bold. I have a friend who has long-seated anti-Catholic myths and misunderstandings from there Protestant upbringing. This explanation may help them along their path to understanding.

 

[Dan-Man916]

The Union of Brest, a (Polish) treaty, after which the Ukrainian and Belorusian Greek Catholic Churches existed included a statement #5: “We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church”.

that statement is open to different interpretations, and is intentionally vague. An Eastern Christian can read this and most certainly disregard Purgatory since the “teaching of the Holy Church” in their tradition has no mention of Purgatory anywhere.

It is easy to agree on a statement when it is so vague that it can be interpreted in any number of ways, as this one certainly is.
The Church does this often, and sometimes purposefully.

 

[Vico]

that statement is open to different interpretations, and is intentionally vague. An Eastern Christian can read this and most certainly disregard Purgatory since the “teaching of the Holy Church” in their tradition has no mention of Purgatory anywhere.

It is easy to agree on a statement when it is so vague that it can be interpreted in any number of ways, as this one certainly is.
The Church does this often, and sometimes purposefully.

“We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church”.

debate v. tr.
**1. **To deliberate on; consider.
**2. **To dispute or argue about.
**3. **To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally.
**4. **Obsolete To fight or argue for or over.

entrust: v. tr.
1 : to confer a trust on; especially : to deliver something in trust to
2 : to commit to another with confidence

commit: v. tr.
1 obsolete : to perpetrate an offense
2 : to obligate or pledge oneself

 

[Dan-Man916]

Not sure what your point is. The teaching of the Holy Church for Ukrainians is absolutely silent on Purgatory as Eastern Christendom knows nothing of it in antiquity.
So they can honestly accept this. They just understand how it is applies to Purgatory differently than the Latin Rite Church does. There is no disupute because Purgatory is formulated in a western way.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I feel this adequately sums it up. It’s from the Orthodox wiki.

*Some Church Fathers, such as St. Cyprian and St. Augustine of Hippo, seemed to believe in a purification after death. However, the character of this purification is never clarified, and especially (as St. Mark of Ephesus underlined at the Council of Florence) it seems there is no true distinction between heaven, hell and the so-called purgatory: all souls partake differently in the same mystical fire (which, according to St. Isaac of Syria, is God’s Love) but because of their spiritual change they are bound to different reactions: bliss for those who are in communion with him; purification for those in the process of being deified; and remorse for those who hated God during their earthly lives. Because of this confusion and inability of the human language to understand these realities, the Church refrains from theological speculation. Instead, she affirms the unbroken Tradition of prayers for the dead, the certainty of eternal life, the rejection of reincarnation, and the communion of the Saints (those living and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord) in the same Body of Christ which is the Church. Private speculation is thus still possible as it was in the time of the Church Fathers. *

 

[ConstantineTG]

I feel this adequately sums it up. It’s from the Orthodox wiki.

*Some Church Fathers, such as St. Cyprian and St. Augustine of Hippo, seemed to believe in a purification after death. However, the character of this purification is never clarified, and especially (as St. Mark of Ephesus underlined at the Council of Florence) it seems there is no true distinction between heaven, hell and the so-called purgatory: all souls partake differently in the same mystical fire (which, according to St. Isaac of Syria, is God’s Love) but because of their spiritual change they are bound to different reactions: bliss for those who are in communion with him; purification for those in the process of being deified; and remorse for those who hated God during their earthly lives. Because of this confusion and inability of the human language to understand these realities, the Church refrains from theological speculation. Instead, she affirms the unbroken Tradition of prayers for the dead, the certainty of eternal life, the rejection of reincarnation, and the communion of the Saints (those living and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord) in the same Body of Christ which is the Church. Private speculation is thus still possible as it was in the time of the Church Fathers. *

Wow this is beautiful. It changes my viewpoint entirely. Thanks!

 

[Vico]

Not sure what your point is. The teaching of the Holy Church for Ukrainians is absolutely silent on Purgatory as Eastern Christendom knows nothing of it in antiquity.
So they can honestly accept this. They just understand how it is applies to Purgatory differently than the Latin Rite Church does. There is no disupute because Purgatory is formulated in a western way.

Oh, I mean it is not vague.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

So what is the Eastern Catholic view on Purgatory? Is it more Roman Catholic, or more Orthodox?

Since its All Souls Day, I guess its a good topic

Do I believe in the Dogma of Purgatory?

If you mean the Dogma pronounced by Trent which affirms (1) that there is a Purgatory, and (2) that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful and especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – then YES, I believe in the Dogma of Purgatory. I don’t see why any Eastern or Oriental Catholic would deny that Dogma.

As an Oriental Catholic, I would even accept prior dogmatic statements that Purgatory cleanses us unto perfection, even by way of some pain. And I certainly accept the doctrine that Purgatory will no longer exist upon the Second Coming.

But do I accept that Purgatory is only for the righteous? Not really.
Do I accept that Purgatory is a place? No.
Do I accept that existence in Purgatory can be measured by time? No.
Do I accept that purification in Purgatory comes by a real fire? No.
Do I accept that purification in Purgatory comes by physical pain? No.
Do I accept the idea that Purgatory satisfies God’s Justice? Yes.
Do I accept the idea that Purgatory is retributive? No.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[yaHalyna]

I recently had a talk with my priest-friend about Purgatory. When I was out of town, at that mass the priest said there was no Purgatory. I contacted my priest friend to ask him because I pray A LOT for the poor souls, especially those who had no family that would pray for them.
Since we are all sinners, though we try to stay in the state of grace, when death comes there must be some purifying of the soul before heaven because God cannot be in the presence of sin, even venial sin. God is just.
Now, I work in the heath field. I have seen all kinds of deaths. I have seen demonic deaths! Believe me, you dont want to see this.
I have seen people who have died and returned to life.
There is no doubt in my mind that not only is there life after this death (anyone who doesn’t believe that probably isn’t on this forum), but that because God is just and merciful He gives us every opportunity possible to join Him.
There was a dear friend, from the most religious family I know, whose eldest son died by ‘an act of God’. There was once a terrible storm and his mother cried out to God: You took one, are you trying to take another? Lightning struck the post in front of her house.
In her sobs her son appeared to her and said: Mom, dont worry about me, I’m fine. I’m in one place and in a little while things will be lots better for me.
I know this woman well. She is totally sane, she has a strong faith, and she would never, ever lie or exaggerate. Does this sound like her son is in Purgatory?
In grade school (UGCC) I was taught 1 lie = 7 years in Purgatory, so how many lies do you want to commit? God will do anything - anything for us. Consider a person who was so in the state of grace but committed one ‘white lie’ in order not to hurt someone else. Do you think God will send this person to hell? There has to be a purgatory.