C
Church_Militant
Guest
The fact is that even in Jesus’ day they commonly spoke Aramaic, hence Peter called Cephas and Our Lord crying out in Aramaic from the cross.
- Status
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
I got a Christmas card from my Baptist brother and sister-in-law…it said that Jesus paid for our salvation in full.Thanks to all yall!
I do believe in Purgatory, always have, to me it only makes sense.
If no unclean thing shall enter Heaven and you die suddenly without first confessing your sins you’ve committed since your last confession…If Purgatory doesn’t exist then you’d go to hell regardless of living an otherwise Christian life.
I asked a Baptist about this yesterday, You know what he said?..We’re saved regardless. He also said that people are saved regardless of not being Baptized.
I said no way, it can’t be that easy
If that’s true…if Jesus paid the whole bill…then why does anyone owe God anything further? Why would anyone go to hell if their debt has already been paid?
M
Michael2799
Guest
The Bible says that it is indeed that easy. But the problem is that the pride of man often will not allow him to accept this incredible gift. It all hinges on the perfect, sinless life of purity that Jesus Christ lived. He fulfilled every single requirement of the law during his life and was perfectly righteousness. This “righteousness” of Jesus Christ is very important.Thanks to all yall!
I do believe in Purgatory, always have, to me it only makes sense.
If no unclean thing shall enter Heaven and you die suddenly without first confessing your sins you’ve committed since your last confession…If Purgatory doesn’t exist then you’d go to hell regardless of living an otherwise Christian life.
I asked a Baptist about this yesterday, You know what he said?..We’re saved regardless. He also said that people are saved regardless of not being Baptized.
I said no way, it can’t be that easy
All Christians wishing to obey Christ should be baptized. Repentance and godly living are evidence that one is truly a believer. A true believer would want to be baptized. However the sacrament itself does not save you. Again, it was Christ’s perfect sacrifice that saves us, nothing can be added to his perfect work. He bore the sins of the entire world on the cross as God’s wrath was poured out on him.
On top of that, at the point that one becomes a true believer, that believer is given the “righteousness” of Jesus Christ. While salvation is easy for us, it was NOT easy for Jesus who was beaten beyond recognition, had spikes driven through his prescious hands and feet and hung on that cross being mocked as he suffered for the very people who were executing him for crimes he never committed. This is the most awesome gift from God to us. It must be received as a gift. We cannot earn it!
Jesus Christ took our sin and gave us his righteousness therefore making us perfect in the eyes of God. We are totally undeserving of this divine exchange (our sins for his righteousness). But without his righteousness we cannot enter heaven. Therefore the Christian is compelled to holy living out of pure love and not the fear of condemnation.
When God looks at Christ on the cross he sees sinners. When he looks at the true believer, he sees Jesus Christ.
On that cross God treated Jesus Christ as if he lived my life!
Catholic theology does not agree with this. I’ve been told that Catholic teaching is that Christ’s death opened the gates of heaven that were previously closed and only made it possible for us to go to heaven but we still have to pay in Purgatory. Therefore Christ opened the door but we must “pay” to get in.
Yes the salvation is the easy part, but the bible repeatedly warns, once one becomes a true believer then the struggle begins because the world will hate you
Just ask Stephen!
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
If we have the righteousness of Christ, why does anyone go to hell? Again, if Christ paid the debt of humanity IN FULL God can expect nothing more. We’re ALL home free, right?
Not exactly. Purgatory is not a requirement, and not all who enter heaven will pass through Purgatory. However, for most people, it will be necessary to have the final, finishing touches of purification performed in Purgatory since NOTHING impure will be allowed to enter heaven.
M
Michael2799
Guest
So true!
People who reject Christ obviously do not possess saving faith will remain in their sin and they will go to hell. Indeed, many people who claim to be christians will go to hell too. Those who have mere intellectual assent, or those who have no desire to turn away from their sins (unrepentance) will go to hell. Modern day evangelicalism tends to neglect this.
So…You are right about that! But when was the last time you heard a good “repent or burn” message preached at Mass?
The book of Hebrews speaks of this purification. It declares that Christ is our purification. So it would seem that Purgatory is not a place, but a person… Jesus Christ!
D
DebChris
Guest
It is true that Jesus paid our price in full. That does not however mean that God wants us to remain in sin. Did Jesus not preach, “Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.”
The OT warns against taking God’s forgiveness for granted. If we truly believe that Jesus died for our sins, for our salvation, then we will live our lives in obedience to God, not out of fear, but out of love, out of our desire to please the Father for the tremendous gift of salvation that we have received.
It has been said before that God does not condemn anybody. Rather it is we who condemn ourselves by our refusal to accept the gift of grace that we have been given.
Jesus also said that if we wish to be His disciple, then we must take up our cross and follow after. His final commandment was to “love one another as I have loved you.”
Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. Whoever says, "I have come to know him but does not obey his commandments is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist., but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may sure that we are in him: whoever says “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked. [1John 1:4].
Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness[1 John 3:4]
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much we also ought to love one another. [1 John 4:10-11].
Recommended reading: Dietriech Boenhoeffer Cost of Discipleship for a discussion on the need to respond to God’s love, and not take it for granted.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
I’ve read Bonhoeffer, thanks.
My point is this: if my mortgage is paid in full, then my mortgage company can ask nothing more of me. My loan is paid in full.
If Jesus paid the debt for my sins in full, then God can ask nothing more of me. I’m going to heaven regardless of what I do because I don’t owe God anything.
A
alacoque
Guest
Randy: If you rack up more debt after your mortgage is paid, you’ll be in debt again and have to pay it off. As long as we’re alive, we can fall back into sin and need to repent and be forgiven.
But, more importantly, I think saying that Jesus paid for all our sins is a little misleading as a way to describe the redemption of the cross. What Jesus did, in His life, death and resurrection, is to restore man to his original friendship with God that had been lost by original sin. By that sin of Adam and Eve, the nature of mankind was wounded in such a way that we could not attain heaven and could not have the supernatural life in us that we have now and that we need in order to be in heaven and with God. We get so used to ‘now’, I think, that sometimes we forget the state man was in before the great gift of redemption.
Jesus, by His death, restored to us what was lost - something we were helpless to do anything about on our own. We now have the ability, through Christ, to be in friendship/relationship with God, to have our personal, daily sins forgiven (the Sacrament of confession) and to receive our Lord, body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. We also have the Church to lead and guide us and to provide the precious Sacraments to us. As God always does, He has left us with even more after the greatest evil the world has ever known (the brutal murder of its creator), than we had before. God is love - and mercy.
A
adrift
Guest
Here is how I see it.
We have attachment to sin. We have attachment to this world. We are human and what causes us to sin is part of that humanity. I may be sorry that I have hurt God and my fellow human being but there is a lingering attachment. I may reject coveting my neighbors things but there is still a part that wants it unwillingly. That is where Purgatory comes in it PURGES us of all the worldly attachment. It is like the purging of steel. It makes us stronger and perfect.
We have attachment to sin. We have attachment to this world. We are human and what causes us to sin is part of that humanity. I may be sorry that I have hurt God and my fellow human being but there is a lingering attachment. I may reject coveting my neighbors things but there is still a part that wants it unwillingly. That is where Purgatory comes in it PURGES us of all the worldly attachment. It is like the purging of steel. It makes us stronger and perfect.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Jesus died for ALL of our sins…even those we have not yet committed. Future sins are part of the total debt that we owe God, and He knows the total amount since He is not bound by space or time.
If Jesus only died for the sins we have already committed up to the point that we are born again, then there would be no forgiveness possible for sins committed later.
Happily, because Jesus paid the TOTAL price for my sins, there is no way I can lose my salvation, and it doesn’t really matter what I do from here on out.
I’m saved no matter what.
A
alacoque
Guest
Randy: I used that first paragraph with a bit of tongue-in-cheek, to make a point or two that I think didn’t make it through.Jesus died for ALL of our sins…even those we have not yet committed. Future sins are part of the total debt that we owe God, and He knows the total amount since He is not bound by space or time.
If Jesus only died for the sins we have already committed up to the point that we are born again, then there would be no forgiveness possible for sins committed later.
Happily, because Jesus paid the TOTAL price for my sins, there is no way I can lose my salvation, and it doesn’t really matter what I do from here on out.
I’m saved no matter what.
However, your interpretation of the redemption - your stated belief that Jesus dying for all of us and all of our sins, leaving no further obligation on us and no responsibility on us to ‘fight the good fight’ or to ‘work out salvation in fear and trembling’ is the Protestant belief. Jesus/God - in the redemption of mankind - did for us what we could never do for oursleves. What we CAN do for ourselves, He allows us to do - with all assistance from His grace, His Sacraments, His Church and all the blessings of the Most Holy Trinity.
What we can do for ourselves is make His redemption our own out of love for Him - we can follow Him and obey Him, we can imitate Him, taking up our cross and following Him - even to Calvary. What we can also do for ourselves is decide whether or not we will commit sin; whether or not we will damage or destroy our love-relationship with so great a God! I think if you gave some real thought to your own personal redemption and what it means - and if you realized the completely undeserved gift you have received, you would be much less flip with it and much more reluctant to just hand all your personal sins over to Jesus. He did die for our sins, but the concept is a lot more subtle and has its own responsibilities that go with it. We definitely have responsibilities before God - and we are definitely accountable for our behavior when we stand before Him on the last day. Please learn more about the Catholic teaching in this area - you don’t have the concept right.
Your post i.d. info shows you as "Protestant convert to Catholic’ - so you are either having on us a bit for a joke or, even thought you have converted to Catholicism, you still do not assent to her teachings. If it’s the latter, you should stop putting yourself out there as Catholic when you are not. Please give serious thought to either assenting and accepting the teaching of the Church (and researching those you don’t yet understand) or admit to yourself that you differ from the Church on some pretty big and essential matters - and don’t call yourself a Catholic until you believe all the Church says and all she propses for our belief. I hope you’re just having us on a bit…that would set better…God bless
D
DebChris
Guest
Jesus warned against false messiahs. The apostles preached against those who taught a gospel different then what they taught. There actually is a person in Florida, profiled on 60 Minutes, who takes this idea that we can do whatever we want regardless to the extreme.Jesus died for ALL of our sins…even those we have not yet committed. Future sins are part of the total debt that we owe God, and He knows the total amount since He is not bound by space or time.
If Jesus only died for the sins we have already committed up to the point that we are born again, then there would be no forgiveness possible for sins committed later.
Happily, because Jesus paid the TOTAL price for my sins, there is no way I can lose my salvation, and it doesn’t really matter what I do from here on out.
I’m saved no matter what.
If all my sins are forgiven I can do want ever I want. It doesn’t matter. God loves me anyway and he already has forgiven me. I can steal, murder, commit adultery, etc. I may have to pay the criminal cost of lawlessness while here on earth because the government says so, but God loves me so much he really doesn’t care what I do.
Love does care. Sin is bondage. Jesus died to release us from our sins, from our bondage to Satan. When we sin, we give ourselves back to Satan.
None of the Apostles taught that we may do whatever we want and still expect salvation. Starting with the Acts of the Apostles, we find the crowd asking Peter “What shall we do?”
*Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord God calls to him * [Acts 2:38-39]. Paul even expresses concern that he may lose his salvation “for I do that which I would not do but do not do that which I would.”
Jesus said, “I am the vine you are the branches. Without me you can do nothing.”
The gift of the cross is not simply that our sins are forgiven. It is that through Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension into heaven, the Holy Spirit dwells within each of us by virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation to keep us from sin.
If we say, I can continue living as I did, or as I would had Christ not died on the cross, we cheapen the sacrifice and throw the gift we have received on the garbage heap, into Gehenna.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Through His grace and our acceptance of the gift, we have the power to become sons and daughters of the most High. Why would I treat that gift with disdain, as if it had no value? In other words, why would I continue to remain in my sin and allow myself to return to Satan’s bondage?
Catholics do not see salvation as a one time occurrence. It is a process. The damage our sins have caused to ourselves and others still needs to be repaired. We were saved 2,000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. We continue to be saved each and every time the Mass is celebrated anywhere in the world until the end of time.
The Holy Spirit, dwelling within us, convicts us of sin by pricking our conscience that we may repent and receive forgiveness through the Sacrament of Reconciliation as we turn back to the Source of our salvation. The Eucharist is the “source and summit” of our faith.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Guys-
I’m being facetious.
I was trying to the OP’s post #16 by intentionally taking a common Protestant position and pushing it to the point of absurdity.
Sorry if I sounded too convincing.
I’m being facetious.
I was trying to the OP’s post #16 by intentionally taking a common Protestant position and pushing it to the point of absurdity.
Sorry if I sounded too convincing.
D
DebChris
Guest
I don’t have the name of the person in Florida who actually does push it to the limit. He even claims the role of messiah.Guys-
I’m being facetious.
I was trying to the OP’s post #16 by intentionally taking a common Protestant position and pushing it to the point of absurdity.
Sorry if I sounded too convincing.
- Status