Purgatory

[BrunoMaria]

Many think, Purgatory and Limbo are two different things.
They are not. It’s same thing, but the world has very much different views to Purgatory, because such thing is not mentioned in the Gospel.
So, some have this - others that view towards the whole question, and consequently some call it this and some that. All believers though, have the same idea and mean same “thing” whilst all have and use different sights and names.

Now; to the name Limbo:
It originates from the Latin word Limbus, which means enclosure. “Enclosed” - cast away somewhere else, instead of in His Kingdom, in beatific view of God. Not allowed - not worthy yet to be in heaven, since nothing unclean, is in heaven.
The great thing though that makes the difference to hell is:
We then, being in Limbo, know, that we will be with God once!
Whilst those in hell never will; as we know of very many verses in the Bible.

Limbo is meant to be an “outer Hell” connected to the actual hell but not hell itself - called Limbo. Hell, because we confess in the Credo, that Jesus went to hell. See Catechism number 633.

As to the word Purgatory:
From the year 200 on, it was rather called Refrigerium = “refresh” (refreshing, cleansing the soul). So called after the Church-Father Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus (Tertullian). In the 6th century Pope Gregor the Great formed the perception of a cleaning fire - in other languages, a place where we are cleansed. E.g. in German: “Fegfeuer” or “Fegefeuer” which would literally translated be a fire that sweeps - scavenges clean.
Fegen = to sweep away
Feuer = Fire

After 1200, the Church’s teaching about a “third place” besides Heaven and Hell led to the highly sinful side effect of the “system of indulgences”; spending money and values to the Church for absolution and acquittance from getting into purgatory; which finally in the 15th century led to Luther’s schism.

Purgatory=Limbo results originally of Mt 12,32: ……but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this age nor in the age to come.

Now, this “neither in this age nor in the age to come” is in non-English Bibles translated as: “neither in this WORLD” nor in the WORLD to come".

The Limbo or Purgatory was at all times connected with the thought of fire just as in hell. This fire, though it was understood literally and in religious art shown as actual FIRE
3 Bilder # 731 Fegfeuer

Well; Dante was right with his: “Those who enter Hell’s Gates can truly abandon all hope!”
As Hell’s gates are concerned; yes, that’s what Jesus Himself said, that there is no hope if we are condemned for hell; for it will be eternal. For instance in Mark 9,43 when Jesus spoke of “the unquenchable fire”.
But with Limbo the big problem we have with those who went before us: We never know, if those who died before us, now are with God or still in Purgatory-Limbo.

The only “hope” for hell and those in hell is (and all in it), that some verses of the bible, point at an extinction of hell after doomsday.

But let’s not think of hell, as hardly any of us will end up there. Most of us though, will see purgatory. At least I will.

Yours
Bruno

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bruno

*The only “hope” for hell and those in hell is (and all in it), that some verses of the bible, point at an extinction of hell after doomsday.
*

Where in the Bible does it say that hell will become extinct after doomsday?

*But let’s not think of hell, as hardly any of us will end up there. *

Where in the bible does it say this?

 

[BrunoMaria]

No verse in the Bible say clearly, that hell ever is extinguished. Ever more so, since Jesus called condemnation eternal. Out of many scriptures of the Church Fathers however, we can draw the conclusion, that hell after Last Judgement is though probably not actually extinguished, but banned into a very far away universe, so far away, that neither hell nor it’s inhabitants ever again even will come back to the mind of those in New Heavens and New Earth.

If that would not be so, then thinking of hell would be too disturbing in heaven, and nothing as we know, will interfere the absolute glory of being with God.

Still – even when we keep in mind Jesus’ word in Lk 13,24, that only few will get into heaven, we know on the other hand of 1Tim 2,4 that God wants all to be saved, and we read in Lk 1,3, that nothing is impossible to God.
So, things might be very much different than we think they will be. But let’s beware of forming the bible to our liking. The Holy scripture is not only absolutely true, but not a single word of it can be changed or freely interpreted, as Jesus gave all authority of teaching, the one and only Church He established on St. Peter the first pope.

Many speak and teach different from the bible; namely as far as hell and condemnation is concerned. St. Paul warned often of this evil, for instance in 2Tim 4,3: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings
And in Gal 1,8: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Yours
Bruno

 

[TimothyH]

But let’s not think of hell, as hardly any of us will end up there. Most of us though, will see purgatory. At least I will.

This is a bit presumptuous Bruno, don’t you think?

Remember that Purgatory is where you go before you get into heaven. And so you are sure that you are getting into heaven? And you have knowledge of the relative proportion of people (most) who will get into heaven?

-Tim-

 

[Shin]

No verse in the Bible say clearly, that hell ever is extinguished. Ever more so, since Jesus called condemnation eternal. Out of many scriptures of the Church Fathers however, we can draw the conclusion, that hell after Last Judgement is though probably not actually extinguished, but banned into a very far away universe, so far away, that neither hell nor it’s inhabitants ever again even will come back to the mind of those in New Heavens and New Earth.

If that would not be so, then thinking of hell would be too disturbing in heaven, and nothing as we know, will interfere the absolute glory of being with God.

Some excerpts on the subject as food for thought.

‘The damned, before the judgment day, will see the blessed in glory, in such a way as to know, not what that glory is like, but only that they are in a state of glory that surpasses all thought. This will trouble them, both because they will, through envy, grieve for their happiness, and because they have forfeited that glory. Hence it is written (Wisdom 5:2) concerning the wicked: “Seeing it” they “shall be troubled with terrible fear.” After the judgment day, however, they will be altogether deprived of seeing the blessed: nor will this lessen their punishment, but will increase it; because they will bear in remembrance the glory of the blessed which they saw at or before the judgment: and this will torment them. Moreover they will be tormented by finding themselves deemed unworthy even to see the glory which the saints merit to have.’

'A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked. Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.

‘To rejoice in another’s evil as such belongs to hatred, but not to rejoice in another’s evil by reason of something annexed to it. Thus a person sometimes rejoices in his own evil as when we rejoice in our own afflictions, as helping us to merit life: “My brethren, count it all joy when you shall fall into divers temptations” (James 1:2).’

‘Although God rejoices not in punishments as such, He rejoices in them as being ordered by His justice.’

‘It is not praiseworthy in a wayfarer to rejoice in another’s afflictions as such: yet it is praiseworthy if he rejoice in them as having something annexed. However it is not the same with a wayfarer as with a comprehensor, because in a wayfarer the passions often forestall the judgment of reason, and yet sometimes such passions are praiseworthy, as indicating the good disposition of the mind, as in the case of shame pity and repentance for evil: whereas in a comprehensor there can be no passion but such as follows the judgment of reason.’

‘Charity is the principle of pity when it is possible for us out of charity to wish the cessation of a person’s unhappiness. But the saints cannot desire this for the damned, since it would be contrary to Divine justice. Consequently the argument does not prove.’

‘God is said to be merciful, in so far as He succors those whom it is befitting to be released from their afflictions in accordance with the order of wisdom and justice: not as though He pitied the damned except perhaps in punishing them less than they deserve.’

'That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more richly, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them."

St. Thomas Aquinas, excerpts from the Summa Theologica

 

[PAboy57]

Bruno

*The only “hope” for hell and those in hell is (and all in it), that some verses of the bible, point at an extinction of hell after doomsday.
*

Where in the Bible does it say that hell will become extinct after doomsday?

*But let’s not think of hell, as hardly any of us will end up there. *

Where in the bible does it say this?

Charlemagne,

This sounds like one of those items you mentioned in another thread.

Bruno,

Here is chuch dogma regarding Purgatory and the damned (hope I didn’t miss any). Dogma has no mention of Limbo but I understand many think this may be the place where unbaptized babies go for example.

• The living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages). (De fide.)
• The Saints in Heaven also can come to the help of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercession. (Sent. communis.)
• The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body. (Sent. probabilis.)
• Suffrages are of no profit to the damned in Hell as they do not belong to the Mystical Body of Christ. (Sent. communis.)
• The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide. )
• The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De fide.)
• The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt. (Sent. communis.)
• The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
• The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)

 

[BrunoMaria]

This is a bit presumptuous Bruno, don’t you think?
-Tim-

No; its biblical.

Remember that Purgatory is where you go before you get into heaven.
-Tim-

No, not all get automatically into purgatory before entering heaven.

And so you are sure that you are getting into heaven?
-Tim-

Yes, for Jesus said in Mak 16,16: He who believes and is baptized will be saved!

And you have knowledge of the relative proportion of people (most) who will get into heaven?
-Tim-

No, we do not know. But we know about ourselves, and we know that only a minority will - among other of Lk 13,23-27

I will try to open another thread for this:
Title:
“Do we know we are getting into heaven?”
I wanted to do so before - but I was too much engaged in other catholic forums. I will today if I might.