meltzerboy
New member
Where does the Catholic notion of purgatory come from: the teaching of Jesus, the New Testament, the early Church Fathers, or all of the above? If it comes from the Bible and Jesus, why don’t Protestants believe in it?
Purgatory
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
All of the above.
Short answer as to why some (not all) Protestants do not believe. . .
Some believe in a ‘cleansing’ but don’t believe that there is a ‘place’ called purgatory. They feel that the cleansing (spoken of in Scripture) takes place when the person confesses to God, so they don’t feel a need for a ‘place’ otherwise.
Some don’t believe in a cleansing so much as a ‘covering’ (dung covered by snow). While they know people have sin in their souls, they feel those sins will be ‘covered’ by God’s mercy.
Some feel that the Scriptures which speak of purgatory are not ‘the real Bible’ (Maccabees) because their faith tradition has a smaller Bible than the Catholic (and a MUCH smaller one than the Orthodox) so they don’t think it IS Scriptural.
meltzerboy
New member
Thanks so much for your informed answer.
G
GTNJNightingale
Guest
whats the case for non christians? people who maybe dont know him and what his purpose was. when they pass…where do they go and how do they have a chance to know the truth.?
C
corsair
Guest
May I suggest, “The Biblical Basis for Purgatory” by John Salza. Its available through Saint Benedict Press, Charlotte, NC ( www.saintbebedictpress.com ) $14.95 plus some shipping.
G
GloriousOrder
Guest
Matthew 5:26 or Luke 12:59 are both used extensively to justify belief in Purgatory. I think the Church, with its emphasis on God’s mercy rather than His intense justice, sees in our Lord a desire to help and not to harm. If He can extract virtue and purify even the most lukewarm people, He will do it for the sake of His eternal self-giving love. Who knows? 
meltzerboy
New member
Many thanks for the reference.
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you for your informed comment. However, I must note that Judaism believes strongly in G-d’s mercy to Jews and all people, as well as His justice.Matthew 5:26 or Luke 12:59 are both used extensively to justify belief in Purgatory. I think the Church, with its emphasis on God’s mercy rather than His intense justice, sees in our Lord a desire to help and not to harm. If He can extract virtue and purify even the most lukewarm people, He will do it for the sake of His eternal self-giving love. Who knows?
T
TrueLight
Guest
Thanks. I’ll check it out as soon as I can. My house is going to be buried under books by the time I am done reading this forum.
Does anyone know when Purgatory became church doctrine and the reasoning for it?
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Also aside form CC teaching the Seers of Fatima and Teresa Of Avila confirm this through their visions.
Teresa of Avila and her visions and confirmatioms of them, are so well documented and confirmed by so many others. Its diifficult to doubt her. Same as with Fatima.
God Bless Gary
The Church Doctrine is well documented.
Teresa of Avila and her visions and confirmatioms of them, are so well documented and confirmed by so many others. Its diifficult to doubt her. Same as with Fatima.
God Bless Gary
The Church Doctrine is well documented.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
meltzerboy,
I posted the following Jewish article on the thread entitled, “The denial of Hell-by Christians?” It is probably more appropriate for this thread.
Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”):
Link: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm
**What Happens After We Die?, By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber
"What is Heaven and Hell?**
**Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. **Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the “Thirteen Principles” of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different “heaven” and “hell” than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.
After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.
This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense–in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality–a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8–depending on how we played the music of our lives.
**When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a “judgment and accounting” of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the “accounting” part; the “judgment” part–that only the soul itself can do.**10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself–only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul’s experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”–i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”).
The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom–the soul’s pain in facing the truth of its life–cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and “bask in the Divine radiance” emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.
For a G-dly soul spawns far more good in its lifetime than evil. The core of the soul is unadulterated goodness; the good we accomplish is infinite, the evil but shallow and superficial. So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven. Furthermore, a soul’s experience of gehinom can be mitigated by the action of his or her children and loved ones, here on earth. Reciting Kaddish and engaging in other good deeds “in merit of” and “for the elevation of” the departed soul means that the soul, in effect, is continuing to act positively upon the physical world, thereby adding to the goodness of its physical lifetime.11
The soul, on its part, remains involved in the lives of those it leaves behind when it departs physical life. The soul of a parent continues to watch over the lives of his/her children and grandchildren, to derive pride (or pain) from their deeds and accomplishments, and to intercede on their behalf before the Heavenly Throne; the same applies to those to whom a soul was connected with bonds of love, friendship and community. In fact, because the soul is no longer constricted by the limitations of the physical state, its relationship with its loved ones is, in many ways, even deeper and more meaningful than before.
However, while the departed soul is aware and cognizant of all that transpires in the lives of its loved ones, the souls remaining in the physical word are limited to what they can perceive via the five senses as facilitated by their physical bodies. We can impact the soul of a departed loved one through our positive actions, but we cannot communicate with it through conventional means (speech, sight, physical contact, etc.) that, prior to its passing, defined the way that we related to each other. (Indeed, the Torah expressly forbids the idolatrous practices of necromancy, mediumism and similar attempts to “make contact” with the world of the dead.) Hence the occurrence of death, while signifying an elevation for the soul of the departed, is experienced as a tragic loss for those it leaves behind."
Is this view widely held by those of the Jewish faith? I would really appreciate your comments. As a Christian, I’m still trying to understand the concept of Purgatory, and am very curious about its origin in Judaism.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
I posted the following Jewish article on the thread entitled, “The denial of Hell-by Christians?” It is probably more appropriate for this thread.
Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”):
Link: chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm
**What Happens After We Die?, By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber
"What is Heaven and Hell?**
**Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. **Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the “Thirteen Principles” of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different “heaven” and “hell” than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.
After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.
This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense–in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality–a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8–depending on how we played the music of our lives.
**When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a “judgment and accounting” of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the “accounting” part; the “judgment” part–that only the soul itself can do.**10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself–only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul’s experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”–i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”).
The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom–the soul’s pain in facing the truth of its life–cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and “bask in the Divine radiance” emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.
For a G-dly soul spawns far more good in its lifetime than evil. The core of the soul is unadulterated goodness; the good we accomplish is infinite, the evil but shallow and superficial. So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven. Furthermore, a soul’s experience of gehinom can be mitigated by the action of his or her children and loved ones, here on earth. Reciting Kaddish and engaging in other good deeds “in merit of” and “for the elevation of” the departed soul means that the soul, in effect, is continuing to act positively upon the physical world, thereby adding to the goodness of its physical lifetime.11
The soul, on its part, remains involved in the lives of those it leaves behind when it departs physical life. The soul of a parent continues to watch over the lives of his/her children and grandchildren, to derive pride (or pain) from their deeds and accomplishments, and to intercede on their behalf before the Heavenly Throne; the same applies to those to whom a soul was connected with bonds of love, friendship and community. In fact, because the soul is no longer constricted by the limitations of the physical state, its relationship with its loved ones is, in many ways, even deeper and more meaningful than before.
However, while the departed soul is aware and cognizant of all that transpires in the lives of its loved ones, the souls remaining in the physical word are limited to what they can perceive via the five senses as facilitated by their physical bodies. We can impact the soul of a departed loved one through our positive actions, but we cannot communicate with it through conventional means (speech, sight, physical contact, etc.) that, prior to its passing, defined the way that we related to each other. (Indeed, the Torah expressly forbids the idolatrous practices of necromancy, mediumism and similar attempts to “make contact” with the world of the dead.) Hence the occurrence of death, while signifying an elevation for the soul of the departed, is experienced as a tragic loss for those it leaves behind."
Is this view widely held by those of the Jewish faith? I would really appreciate your comments. As a Christian, I’m still trying to understand the concept of Purgatory, and am very curious about its origin in Judaism.
Peace and blessings,
Anna
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, it is the prevalent view. Many Jews believe their departed loved ones watch over them and experience their joys and sorrows. Also, lighting candles and saying prayers for departed parents yearly on the anniversary of their death and on Holy Days is customary. The Gehenna is a 12-month period of atonement (suspended on the Sabbath) that the souls of all Jews and gentiles must pass through before entering Heaven. Those whose souls are too wicked to be cleansed are separated from G-d. However, there is no physical punishment in Hell. I’m not certain that only the soul passes judgment while the “Heavenly Court” does the accounting. Based on my understanding, G-d passes the Final Judgment and Satan executes it. The “Jewish” Satan has two other functions as well: he is the Angel of Death who carries the departed soul to Gehenna and he is G-d’s messenger who is sent to tempt humans, but who, together with G-d, wishes them to resist the temptation. A final point: Torah Judaism believes in the death penalty, but only in extreme cases: practically speaking, it is seldom carried out because of burden of proof is so high: two eyewitnesses are required and so on. The jusitication for it is that it serves to alleviate somewhat the Gehenna cleansing since it is the start of the atonement process.
crystal_waters
New member
check out this website
missionbell.homestead.com/Afavourgrantedbytheholysouls.html
shows that purgatory is in the bible…
shows how to pray for the holy souls
shows all the favours people are obtaining through the holy souls prayers and intercessions
meltzerboy
New member
Much thanks for the link.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
crystal waters,
I checked out your link too. It was very informative. Thanks.
Anna
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Praying for the dead has always been part of the faith passed down from the Apostles. Of course the way Purgatory is understood today is a more recent development in the Latin faith. But the core of the belief has always been a doctrine from the beginning.
T
Todd_Easton
Guest
You might find the article on “Purgatory” in Catholic Answers’ online Catholic encyclopedia (“Encyclopedia” tab at the top of the webpage) helpful. In the “III. Proofs” section, there are references to supporting passages in the Old Testament (2 Machabees), New Testament, and other writings of early Christians (“Tradition”).
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
In part because they ignore its Jewish roots.
The Doctrine of Purgatory Proved from Scripture
2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.
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