Purgatory

[kepha1]

The doctrine of purgatory has been around since the beginning of Christianity, with Jesus and Paul elaborating on what the Jews had in primitive form: The Bosom of Abraham.

*"A killer proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be found by comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. *
**
*In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the “Bosom of Abraham.” However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus’ death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. *
**
*Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven (“I go to prepare a place for you”), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this “Bosom of Abraham” in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as “the Paradise of the Fathers” --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth; the Jewish equivalent to the Greco-Roman/pagan idea of the “Ellesian Fields” --a pleasant place, but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now, … To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " This day* you will be with me in Paradise. " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " …in Heaven." …And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY.
**
Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! …Not rising until Sunday morning. …And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus’ soul spent that day AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. …And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL “not yet ascended to the Father.” So, the “Paradise” Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is absolutely not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven."

by Art Sippo, M.D. (source no longer on line)

 

[NeedImprovement]

Wow, for a second there I thought you must be a politician. You really tried to spin that one.

You were NOT being asked about the sin itself, you were being asked about sins being forgiven in THE AGE TO COME. That’s what I would like you to answer. How can a sin be forgiven in the age to come? Where/what is this place or state of existence? The question is very simple.

While we’re here, I’ll ask another: Scripture tells us that when Jesus died he “preached to the spirits in prison”. What is this prison Scripture speaks of?

There before you are two Scripture passages which clearly show that there is at least one other “place” besides Heaven and Hell. Catholics call that place Purgatory. What say you?

…Nice to see other people caught that too. I thought the first answer might come from the OP whom I quoted, but… .

It was Pope St. Gregory the Great who provided us with that inspired insight into Matt 12:32 …[DRV]

“Whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world nor in the World to come”

Pope St. Gregory the Great reasoned (parenthetical terms mine) : “The words of Christ in St. Matthew infer that sins (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) can be forgiven in the next life. Now this cannot be done in Heaven or Hell, but only in another state which the Church calls Purgatory”.

Our Catholic Faith has a fairly good article entitled, simply, Purgatory , but , like Jimmy Akin’s article linked by FCEGM, these answers were formulated principally in reply to Protestant arguments…

It would be my sincere hope that the ignorance of some, would never serve to discourage in any way, those who may be considering offering paryers for the holy souls in Purgatory. These brothers and sisters of ours rely heavily on our prayers.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Sadly I only hear crickets from our Protestant friends regarding sins being forgiven after death. I love that verse

 

[Edoson]

Wrong, atoning for our sins is the purpose of purgatory

 

[NeedImprovement]

I do admit to being a little more concerned about our “Catholic friends” when they bring up questions about Purgatory.

For Protestants, it hasn’t been included as part of their instruction or Christian formation, but for Catholics, Purgatory is doctrine - proposed by the Holy Catholic Church as a *“truth necessary for our acceptance” *and it is dogma - doctrine which the Church “proposes for belief as formally revealed by God”.

… Which sets the following statements against what the Church teaches-

Bible never says purgatory, and God didn’t ever say that they’re was a middle place where you weren’t really to bad but you weren’t that good. and saying prayers doesn’t release people of their fate even if purgatory did exist.

Plus, whoever posted the group of verses, those aren’t necessarily referring to purgatory? some are even completely irrelevant…

…God said it was either eternity in hell or eternity in heaven, he never mentioned a little middle place.

The real clincher for me is that Catholics have the greatest resources at their disposal for helping the holy souls in Purgatory . As our Blessed Lord Jesus said to St. Faustina ([also 8th day meditation for Novena to the Divine Mercy] ):

Today bring to Me the souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.

Every time the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered, we pray for the holy souls in Purgatory .

While it is true that Purgatory is about expiation - remission of the temporal penalty or punishment which can remain after the guilt of a sin is forgiven , the word used in Sacred Scripture by our Blessed Lord is “forgiven” - the same word used by the Catechism of the Catholic Church who are quoting Pope St. Gregory the Great’s exegesis on Matt 12:32.
From the :Catechism of the Catholic Church

1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

The tradition of the Church “by reference of certain texts of Scripture” means that Jesus did say things about Purgatory – and not “supposedly” as the original post suggests… we just need guys like Pope St. Gregory the Great to help point that out to us .

 

[NeedImprovement]

@ FCEGM :

Hi .

The first link in your post

A reading of this article would show you how the early Church Fathers regarded Purgatory:

envoymagazine.com/backiss…urfathers.html

…doesn’t seem to be working for me. I keep getting this message displayed instead:
<The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable>

I even tried going to envoy magazine’s site and perused several articles in some of the back issues - to no avail. I’d been really hoping to read the article you were linking because I find envoy magazine’s articles are so well written and easy to read.

I don’t know if it’s just me or if the first link posted in post # 16 doesn’t work for anyone else either (the second link works fine). Do you think you might try posting the link again when convenient ?

Thanks and God bless.

 

[Edoson]

Unfortunately you are approaching this belief of the Church as a Protestant who insists that everything that a Christian must believe must be seen in black and white on the pages of a bible. Since you say you are a Catholic then you should know that the Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture form the basis of all Catholic belief, with the former never contradicting the latter.

Now you have been shown how the Church, as the official interpreter of Scripture, reads the passages indicating the existence of Purgatory, yet you insist that your subjective reading of Scripture necessarily indicates that the Church is wrong in its perennial belief in the purification of souls before they may enter into the fullness of the Beatific Vision.

A reading of this article would show you how the early Church Fathers regarded Purgatory:

envoymagazine.com/backiss…urfathers.html

And, as you say you are a Catholic, this from our present Holy Father should be of help to you unless you persist in your unbelief of the teaching of Christ through His Church:

The full article containing this quote might be helpful:

cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

Lastly, regarding the scriptural bona fides of Purgatory, it is very clear from the Jewish record that “Gehenna” was not understood in the sense that we today understand “Hell.” For, in the ancient Jewish understanding, “Gehenna” could be either permanent and eternal (i.e., Hell) or it could be a temporary place of purgation and purification. This is seen quite clearly in Luke 16 itself. The element of this story which Protestants seem to consistently overlook is the fact that the Rich Man, who is being tormented in Gehenna, is (a) still in a Covenental relationship with Abraham (e.g. he still calls Abraham “father” and Abraham still calls him “my child”) and, even more notably, and (b) the Rich Man is deeply concerned for his brothers who are still alive! IOW, the Rich Man is still able to express selfless charity; for he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brothers when it becomes clear that there is nothing Abraham can do to cease his personal suffering. This alone shows us that the Rich Man is not in hell, for, in hell, it is impossible for a soul to be charitable - to express love for another. This is only possible in and through God and some kind of Covenantal relationship with God. Therefore, the Rich Man must be experiencing a period of purgation and purification, i.e., Purgatory.

I believe the Bible is the instruction manual. It is historically accurate and quite precise… And even though I am Catholic I question the church because that is the best way to elaborate in my way I interpret God and his precepts, you act as if the church is perfect and has an answer to everything. Back to purgatory, and why shouldn’t we use the Bible as our guide?the Bible is complete trut, though rhe writers may have not been history doesn’t lie. Id rather read my Bible the other peoples theories.

 

[Leopardz]

Wrong, atoning for our sins is the purpose of purgatory

Actually, this is not a way to refute a claim.

I’ll give you an analogy.

Bryan went to Australia, not New Zealand.
Eugene then accused Bryan for claiming he went to New Zealand, then went on to prove that Bryan was never in New Zealand.
When Bryan said “No, I didn’t say I went to New Zealand. I went to Australia. By the way, this is my passport record, a proof that I was in Australia”.
Eugene then said “No, you said you went to New Zealand. But there’s no proof that you were in New Zealand”.

Do you see the problem here?
You were refuting a claim that made by no one in the first place.

Catholic Church NEVER taught Purgatory is for atoning sin.
If you keep accusing Catholic Church for teaching so, I really don’t see there’s a point in this argument.

Yes, you can proof that “atoning sin after death” is not in the Bible because it’s really not in the Bible. But no one is claiming that you can “atone sin after death” in the first place, at least not the Catholic Church.

Do you see the problem with your argument?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I see several posts saying how Jesus supposedly said things about purgatory and so on, get i have read the Bible 8 times and never seen them, plus when were people on Earth able to free people from where God has placed them?

I think some reading will be helpful…

Articles on Purgatory

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Purgatory
By Rev. William G. Most
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204chap.asp

**PURGATORY IN ALL BUT NAME **
By W. ROBERT ANFILL
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Purgatory? Where Is That in the Bible?
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp

---

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspectiveby Victor R. Claveau
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2033423/posts

How to Argue the Existence of Purgatory
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
by James Akin
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm

 

[Randy_Carson]

You wont find any evidence of purgatory in the Bible because it isn’t Biblical.

:nope:

Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Bible never says purgatory, and God didn’t ever say that they’re was a middle place where you weren’t really to bad but you weren’t that good. and saying prayers doesn’t release people of their fate even if purgatory did exist.

Plus, whoever posted the group of verses, those aren’t necessarily referring to purgatory? some are even completely irrelevant.

Daniel NEVER talked about purgatory in the Bible, or even came close to relating a subject to it.

God said it was either eternity in hell or eternity in heaven, he never mentioned a little middle place.

The Doctrine of Purgatory Shown from Scripture

2 Maccabees 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; or if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

---

Even those Christians who deny that Maccabees 1 & 2 belong are inspired and belong in the canon of the Old Testament must admit that this passage reveals that the Jews believed that that the living may pray for the dead and make sacrifices for them in order that they might be freed from the sins they had committed. It was with this cultural understanding as a backdrop that the following New Testament verses come into focus.

---

Luke 12:42-48
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”

Notice that there are not two but three categories of servants in this parable: 1) the “wise and faithful manager” who is rewarded (heaven); 2) the unfaithful servant who knows his master’s will but does not do it and who is “cut to pieces and assigned a place with the unbelievers (hell)l; and 3) the one “who does not know and does things deserving punishment.” This final servant is beaten with “few blows” (purgatory).

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

 

[Randy_Carson]

God said it was either eternity in hell or eternity in heaven, he never mentioned a little middle place.

Yes and no. There are two permanent places - heaven and hell - and one temporary place, purgatory. Technically, however, purgatory may not be a place at all but rather a process.

Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell
davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism 1030)

Here’s a simple illustration of what Catholics believe is Purgatory’s place in the scheme of things. (Due to the limitations of the forum software, I can’t re-produce the original graphic image seen at the website above. Please imagine an arrowhead at the end of the line pointing from Purgatory to Heaven, and ignore the dots I am forced to use as spacers.)

…Heaven (eternal)
…/
…/…
…/…
…Earth------>Purgatory (temporary)
…
…
…
…Hell (eternal)

Catholics believe that some people go straight to Heaven, which is also what Evangelicals believe. It would be very cool to go straight to Heaven. Let’s pray for each other for that. The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of “Venial Sin” (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). If we were to put it in Evangelical terms, Purgatory would be where the backslider would get cleaned up before joining the wedding banquet of the Lord - so he wouldn’t be thrown out (Mat 22:12). For nothing unclean can enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. Jesus did that on the Cross. Purgatory removes the effects of sin. An imperfect way to look at it is to think of a nail hammered into a piece of wood. My father would pull the nail out of the wood (sin) but there would still be a dent in the wood. Purgatory is the process of straightening out the wood (the effect of sin). Certainly Jesus can and does the clean up. He is a merciful God but he is also a ***just ***God.

People who rebelliously refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don’t go to Purgatory. They go to hell.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I believe the Bible is the instruction manual. It is historically accurate and quite precise… And even though I am Catholic I question the church because that is the best way to elaborate in my way I interpret God and his precepts, you act as if the church is perfect and has an answer to everything. Back to purgatory, and why shouldn’t we use the Bible as our guide?the Bible is complete trut, though rhe writers may have not been history doesn’t lie. Id rather read my Bible the other peoples theories.

So, you read your Bible and formulate your own theories about what it means.

Why not read your Bible AND and the theories of people who are A) smarter than you are and B) more knowledgable about what the Bible actually means?

Those theories are gathered together in a book we call the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Wrong, atoning for our sins is the purpose of purgatory

Wrong.

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism, 1030)

At some point, the evidence presented should suggest to you that your understanding of Catholic theology with regard to the doctrine of Purgatory is imperfect.

 

[edjco]

Also, the OP may wish to research the Jewish “Mourner’s Kaddish”. This is done for the well being of the soul after death.

If I remember right, Jesus Himself was a Jew…

 

[FCEGM]

@ FCEGM :

Hi .

The first link in your post
…doesn’t seem to be working for me. I keep getting this message displayed instead:
<The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable>

I even tried going to envoy magazine’s site and perused several articles in some of the back issues - to no avail. I’d been really hoping to read the article you were linking because I find envoy magazine’s articles are so well written and easy to read.

I don’t know if it’s just me or if the first link posted in post # 16 doesn’t work for anyone else either (the second link works fine). Do you think you might try posting the link again when convenient ?

Thanks and God bless.

I tried the link and it didn’t work for me either. Going through some “back doors” I think I found it:

envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.1/faithofourfathers.html

I also found this one by Patrick Madrid:

envoymagazine.com/planetenvoy/special-purgatoryemergencyroom1.htm (He also mentions here that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, that that rich man isn’t in hell. )

I hope these work for you!

 

[FCEGM]

I believe the Bible is the instruction manual. It is historically accurate and quite precise… And even though I am Catholic I question the church because that is the best way to elaborate in my way I interpret God and his precepts, you act as if the church is perfect and has an answer to everything. Back to purgatory, and why shouldn’t we use the Bible as our guide?the Bible is complete trut, though rhe writers may have not been history doesn’t lie. Id rather read my Bible the other peoples theories.

IOW, you approach Scripture just as I said you do - as a Protestant. When it comes to what a Christian is to believe regarding Faith and Morals, yes the Catholic Church has the answers since only the Church teaches with the authority of Jesus Christ. You, otoh, do not and only bring your own imperfect judgment and intellectual and spiritual abilities to the reading of Scripture unconnected with the Faith from the beginning, thus making of yourself your own little pope in your church of one.

 

[braidwood]

I have had the Purgatory debate with my non Catholic wife many times.
She also likes to bring up the Last Day and final judgement and asks how souls will be dealt with at that time if they need to go through the Purgatory process for a long time.
Not sure I have a clear answer on that one and would appreciate some help.
Mike

 

[vz71]

I have had the Purgatory debate with my non Catholic wife many times.
She also likes to bring up the Last Day and final judgement and asks how souls will be dealt with at that time if they need to go through the Purgatory process for a long time.
Not sure I have a clear answer on that one and would appreciate some help.
Mike

Time is not the same here as it is in the hereafter.
Assuming time exists at all in the hereafter.

 

[mdcpensive1]

A way of stating the doctrine of Purgatory can be done from reason. If you consider yourself a sinner (which all most likely will do) then you must know that in Heaven there is no sin. So somehow you must get from the state of sinfulness to be able to be in the presence of God who cannot be with sin. This process is Purgatory. For someone to refute it is to say that we are not cleansed of our sin tendencies to be in God’s presence.

mdcpensive1