purgatory

[Third_Day]

Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?

It would seem to me that as long as a Catholic doesn’t deny the existance of purgatory they are still in good standing with the Church. Take, for example, a person that goes through RCIA and accepts the Catholic Church as the True Church and is received into the Church but they still struggle with the dogma of purgatory. As long as they continue to try and understand the teaching to the best of their ability and do not deny or reject the teaching they remain Catholic. Just “leaving it be” and continuing to doubt would not be the correct thing to do. One needs to study what the Church teaches and why and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them to a full understanding.

 

[w_s_s]

It is not implied. It is an infallible teaching. Infallible teachings are not implications.

The infallible teaching is that (at least some of) the dead exist in a state in which they benefit from our prayers. The exact specifics of that state have not been infallibly defined.

Here is the statement of the Council of Trent on purgatory: Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar…

You seem uncomfortable with the word “imply”, but the word “imply” expresses logical deduction: A implies B means, if A is true, then B must also be true. The words of the Council of Trent: there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful imply that purgatory is a third “place” separate from Heaven and Hell, just as I said, which is true, but only necessarily so because the statement of the Council is true.

The CCC, by the way, is not infallible, so when talking about infallible teaching, extensive quotes from the CCC are rarely helpful.

 

[bmullins]

It is my understanding from a recent RCIA conversation on this very topic, we don’t have to understand… and we don’t have to believe the dogma, but we have to believe the church is right IN the dogma. That we have to acknowledge the church got it right, and that we just don’t understand. We also have to teach others the churches teaching, we can’t go off and just say ‘the church says, but I believe’.

In other words, if we don’t believe, we have to realize it’s probably because we don’t understand. So we need to start by saying we don’t know, and work our way to ‘knowing.’

 

[w_s_s]

Not so. The nature of purgatory (if I understand your post correctly) HAS been defined. It is a state, or place, of cleansing where we are purged (made clean) of our venial sins that remain with us at our time of death, should we die in a state of imperfection.

The Council of Trent specified that temporal punishment due to sin can be discharged either on Earth or in Purgatory. What has not been defined is the popular conception of purgatory as a place of fire, etc.

It is good to pray for the dead, as you stated. However, our prayers for those in purgatory are beneficial.

Yes, I said earlier that our prayers for the dead are beneficial.

 

[w_s_s]

It would seem to me that as long as a Catholic doesn’t deny the existance of purgatory they are still in good standing with the Church. Take, for example, a person that goes through RCIA and accepts the Catholic Church as the True Church and is received into the Church but they still struggle with the dogma of purgatory. As long as they continue to try and understand the teaching to the best of their ability and do not deny or reject the teaching they remain Catholic. Just “leaving it be” and continuing to doubt would not be the correct thing to do. One needs to study what the Church teaches and why and ask the Holy Spirit to guide them to a full understanding.

No this is wrong. Catholics must affirm and believe all that the Church teaches. So Catholics must believe that purgatory exists, that souls can be detained in purgatory for some time, and that the prayers of the faithful are beneficial for those souls detained in purgatory.

Catholics are not required to believe that the souls in purgatory burn in fire or that it takes months or years of intense suffering in purgatory to do penance equivalent to small penances on Earth. Note that there are good reasons to believe these things, but Catholics are not absolutely required to believe them.

 

[TimothyH]

I love the question in the original post. It asks about belief, doubt and the assent of faith.

Purgatory is dogma, and as such it requires the assent of Faith. Most people confuse belief and faith. Faith is one of the Theological Virtues. Faith is not belief. The Catechism defines faith.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself.

We make a concious decision to believe, and we do so not because we understand it and not because it makes sense, but because it is revealed truth - revealed to us by Christ through his Holy Church. We gain faith, the habitual virtue of belief without understanding by giving the “Yes of our heart”, by making a concious decision to believe what the Church tells us.

Some complain that we cannot make a concious decision to believe something, as if belief is something which happens to us, but a wonderful example of someone who makes a concious decision to believe something in spite of his doubt is given to us in Scripture.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, “‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith.” Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:21-24)

The boy’s father makes a concious decision to believe. What is amazing however, is the man’s honesty in crying out “Help my unbelief!” He makes a concious decision to believe that which is very difficult to believe - he gives the “Yes of his heart”, but couples it with an honest statement about how difficult it is and a cry to God for help in overcoming his doubt. He doubts because he is human, imperfect, and frail, but he makes a concious decision to believe, and then Jesus cures the boy.

The assent of faith comes first, then light comes and we understand. But some initial doubt is natural. What we do about that doubt is very important. Faith as a virtue is when we habitually believe that which we find difficult to understand, because we trust God’s Holy Church.

The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. (Matthew 28:16-17)

The disciples worshipped because they believed, but some of them lacked faith so they doubted. Doubt is normal and Chrust understands that, but we have to give the assent of faith, the yes of our hearts, a concious decision to believe first, and cry out to God for help with the rest. Thomas didn’t do that.

So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. (John 20:25)

Thomas refused to beleve. Jesus showed him his hands and his feet. Sometimes Jesus does radical things to get our attention. But it he tells us that this is not the way he normally operates, saying,

*Have you come to believe because you have seen me?r Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. (John 20:29) *

-Tim-

 

[CEM5]

The Council of Trent specified that temporal punishment due to sin can be discharged either on Earth or in Purgatory. What has not been defined is the popular conception of purgatory as a place of fire, etc.

Yes, I said earlier that our prayers for the dead are beneficial.

Oh, because it must have been an error (typo) when you said, those places (hell and purgatory?)“cannot benefit” as below.

“Because souls in each of those “places” cannot benefit from our prayers”.

True, it hasn’t been defined, yet Scripture, (as I have already given passages in my post) implies a “fiery” purging, as “you shall put into the fire, that it may become clean” and “because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done”.

Scott Hahn calls it “Holy fire”, and it is not the same type of fire as here on earth, but a cleansing fire: not a destructive fire.

Regardless, it is a place (or state) where we are purged (cleansed) of all imperfections. And not too many of us die “perfect”. Bless the Lord for His love and mercy on us that we who die without mortal sin have this.

blessings,
CEM

 

[CEM5]

I love the question in the original post. It asks about belief, doubt and the assent of faith.

Purgatory is dogma, and as such it requires the assent of Faith. Most people confuse belief and faith. Faith is one of the Theological Virtues. Faith is not belief. The Catechism defines faith.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself.

We make a concious decision to believe, and we do so not because we understand it and not because it makes sense, but because it is revealed truth - revealed to us by Christ through his Holy Church. We gain faith, the habitual virtue of belief without understanding by giving the “Yes of our heart”, by making a concious decision to believe what the Church tells us.

Some complain that we cannot make a concious decision to believe something, as if belief is something which happens to us, but a wonderful example of someone who makes a concious decision to believe something in spite of his doubt is given to us in Scripture.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, “‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith.” Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:21-24)

The boy’s father makes a concious decision to believe. What is amazing however, is the man’s honesty in crying out “Help my unbelief!” He makes a concious decision to believe that which is very difficult to believe - he gives the “Yes of his heart”, but couples it with an honest statement about how difficult it is and a cry to God for help in overcoming his doubt. He doubts because he is human, imperfect, and frail, but he makes a concious decision to believe, and then Jesus cures the boy.

The assent of faith comes first, then light comes and we understand. But some initial doubt is natural. What we do about that doubt is very important. Faith as a virtue is when we habitually believe that which we find difficult to understand, because we trust God’s Holy Church.

The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. (Matthew 28:16-17)

The disciples worshipped because they believed, but some of them lacked faith so they doubted. Doubt is normal and Chrust understands that, but we have to give the assent of faith, the yes of our hearts, a concious decision to believe first, and cry out to God for help with the rest. Thomas didn’t do that.

So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. (John 20:25)

Thomas refused to beleve. Jesus showed him his hands and his feet. Sometimes Jesus does radical things to get our attention. But it he tells us that this is not the way he normally operates, saying,

Have you come to believe because you have seen me?r Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed. (John 20:29)

-Tim-

Very well explained! Better than I did when I brought up similar comparision with doubting Thomas.

 

[thistle]

The infallible teaching is that (at least some of) the dead exist in a state in which they benefit from our prayers. The exact specifics of that state have not been infallibly defined.

Here is the statement of the Council of Trent on purgatory: Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar…

You seem uncomfortable with the word “imply”, but the word “imply” expresses logical deduction: A implies B means, if A is true, then B must also be true. The words of the Council of Trent: there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful imply that purgatory is a third “place” separate from Heaven and Hell, just as I said, which is true, but only necessarily so because the statement of the Council is true.

The CCC, by the way, is not infallible, so when talking about infallible teaching, extensive quotes from the CCC are rarely helpful.

The CCC is not infallible per se but it contains a summary of infallible and non-infallible teachings.
The teaching about Purgatory is infallible. A Catholic MUST believe all infallible teachings. With an infallible teaching you cannot say I have doubts about it but I’ll accept it.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

 

[Third_Day]

No this is wrong. Catholics must affirm and believe all that the Church teaches. So Catholics must believe that purgatory exists, that souls can be detained in purgatory for some time, and that the prayers of the faithful are beneficial for those souls detained in purgatory.

.

I disagree. Let’'s say a Catholic believes that the Church is wrong on contraception. They can believe it is wrong yet they must obey the teaching. A Catholic can have doubts about a Dogma but nonetheless they must accept that the Church is right and they need to realize that and they need to continue to study and pray to help them see that the Church is right.
There are times that life long Catholics have doubted the Real Presence in the Eucharist. That doesn’t mean that they are committing a mortal sin. It does mean that they must not receive the Eucharist until that doubt is removed. They need to continue to study what the Church teaches but in the meantime they are not excomunicated because of their doubt.
The same would go for purgatory or any other dogma. Doubts are a normal process. Total conversion can take time for some people.

 

[CEM5]

I disagree. Let’'s say a Catholic believes that the Church is wrong on contraception. They can believe it is wrong yet they must obey the teaching. A Catholic can have doubts about a Dogma but nonetheless they must accept that the Church is right and they need to realize that and they need to continue to study and pray to help them see that the Church is right.
There are times that life long Catholics have doubted the Real Presence in the Eucharist. That doesn’t mean that they are committing a mortal sin. It does mean that they must not receive the Eucharist until that doubt is removed. They need to continue to study what the Church teaches but in the meantime they are not excomunicated because of their doubt.
The same would go for purgatory or any other dogma. Doubts are a normal process. Total conversion can take time for some people.

Good answer and very true. Many people doubt, because they don’t fully understand, yet they OBEY the Church’s teachings.

 

[thistle]

Good answer and very true. Many people doubt, because they don’t fully understand, yet they OBEY the Church’s teachings.

But they cannot maintain an obstinate doubt.

 

[Eileen_T]

I disagree. Let’'s say a Catholic believes that the Church is wrong on contraception. They can believe it is wrong yet they must obey the teaching. A Catholic can have doubts about a Dogma but nonetheless they must accept that the Church is right and they need to realize that and they need to continue to study and pray to help them see that the Church is right.
There are times that life long Catholics have doubted the Real Presence in the Eucharist. That doesn’t mean that they are committing a mortal sin. It does mean that they must not receive the Eucharist until that doubt is removed. They need to continue to study what the Church teaches but in the meantime they are not excomunicated because of their doubt.
The same would go for purgatory or any other dogma. Doubts are a normal process. Total conversion can take time for some people.

Just an aside here not to confuse a difficulty with a doubt.

Many years ago, when I came back to the Church, I had to consider the matter of contraception. I totally did not understand WHY it was wrong, but I accepted that the Church must have good reason to declare it wrong. So I did not doubt the Church was wrong in condemning it, even thought I had difficulty understanding the teaching.

I accepted that the problem lay with me and it was up to me to learn the why and wherefore, which I eventually did.

However, it was not okay for me to just shrug and say “I don’t know why but I will just accept it blindly.” Our Faith requires obedience, but not blind obedience. God gave us both an intellect and free will and we must use them wisely.

 

[TraditonRules]

Take purgatory for example. One can say, “Geesh, I don’t know about purgatory. I doubt it, but I’m not going to deny it. I’ll just leave it be. If the church says so, okay, but I personally have my doubts…” That’s okay. They can be Catholic.

Right or wrong?

My struggle is that purgatory is unfounded in the bible, it is founded in tradition. That being said it leaves room for belief. Did Christ die for our sins so we would have purgatory??

I am not convinced either way yet, its hard to believe because simply the RC faith say so.

 

[pablope]

My struggle is that purgatory is unfounded in the bible, it is founded in tradition. That being said it leaves room for belief. Did Christ die for our sins so we would have purgatory??

No. You do have a misunderstanding. This is a common protestant misunderstanding.

I am not convinced either way yet, its hard to believe because simply the RC faith say so.

 

[TimothyH]

My struggle is that purgatory is unfounded in the bible, it is founded in tradition. That being said it leaves room for belief. Did Christ die for our sins so we would have purgatory??

I am not convinced either way yet, its hard to believe because simply the RC faith say so.

Purgatory is very clear in the Bible. It is all but explicit.

One has to understand three things before one can begin to understand Purgatory; 1) what a covenant is, 2) what the requirements are to get into Heaven, and 3) what Jesus taught about sin. When one understands these three concepts, one will come to realize that a theology with only Heaven and Hell does not make sense.

In short, one must be perfect to enter heaven. Those who break the covenant however, and do not repent, get sent to Hell. In a theology with only Heaven and Hell, those who do not break the covenant (mortal sin) and as such do not merit hell, but who are not yet perfect and cannot get into Heaven, these have nowhere to go. It’s a catch 22 which is only solved by Purgatory.

Purgatory is a great mercy, a gift given to us by God for those who have remained faithful to the covenant but who are not yet perfect. Paul mentions it several times in scripture, as does Jesus.

For Jews, it is all about the covenant. We always have to look at scripture through the eyes of a Jew.

See The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory, or if you prefer a PDF, timhollingworth.webs.com/docs/catholic/04-the.biblical.basis.for.catholic.belief-purgatory.pdf

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

No. You do have a misunderstanding. This is a common protestant misunderstanding.

 

[Pitcharan]

My struggle is that purgatory is unfounded in the bible, it is founded in tradition. That being said it leaves room for belief. Did Christ die for our sins so we would have purgatory??

I am not convinced either way yet, its hard to believe because simply the RC faith say so.

I struggled just like you and my ponderings on the subject let to this realisation:
*We cannot expiate for our own sins; only an immaculate person without sin can expiate for our sins. This was revealed figuratively through Moses (Lev 4), again prophetically through Isaiah (Is 49-52) and finally made crystal clear and plain by the life and teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus.

Then why do we suffer? After many readings, ponderings, desolate moments, confusing thoughts and fears, this is what I finally understood— Our Lord’s sufferings remove our sins while our own sufferings remove our sinfulness and salvific struggle is all about learning to stop sinning by enduring much suffering obediently. Freedom is achieved through complete purging of our sinful nature by our own sufferings which can only increase manifold if avoided now and kept for purgation after death.*

 

[TimothyH]

However, it was not okay for me to just shrug and say “I don’t know why but I will just accept it blindly.” Our Faith requires obedience, but not blind obedience. God gave us both an intellect and free will and we must use them wisely.

We see a wonderful example of one who makes a concious decision to believe, even in the face of tremendous doubt, and what he does with that doubt, in the story of the Father who’s son is possessed.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. 22It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” 23Jesus said to him, “‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith.” 24Then the boy’s father cried out, “I do believe, help my unbelief!” (Mark 9:21-24)

The boy’s father does not believe, and Jesus is indignant. Jesus says, “I am God!!! What about your faith?” Then the boys’ father does an amazing thing, something which many inists cannot be done. He makes an act of the will, he makes a concious decision to believe. But what comes next is even more amazing - he makes an honest statement about how difficult it is to believe. His entire being cries out, “This can’t be true! It doesn’t make sense!!!” and in his despair he cries out to Jesus for help with his doubt, which is strong. But first comes his act of the will, his decision to believe.

And what happens? Jesus helps his unbelief in a big way. Jesus cures his son. Now the man not only has belief, but faith, and more than that, he has trust.

fides quaerens intellectum

Or “faith preceedes understanding.” Its an axiom of the spiritual life. We make a concious decision to believe, and then give our doubt to Jesus, and he will give us understanding, and light, and we will trust him and be happy. But the concious decision to believe in spite of our doubt comes first. Faith comes first.

Those who say that they cannot just make a decision to believe something maybe hanv’t paid as much attention to this story in the Bible as they should, and ought to give it a try.

-Tim-

 

[TraditonRules]

I agree purgatory is not explicit in the bible. My studies and other Catholics agree that it is unfounded in the bible. It is within Tradition that purgatory is founded. That is all I am saying.

Purgatory is very clear in the Bible. It is all but explicit.

One has to understand three things before one can begin to understand Purgatory; 1) what a covenant is, 2) what the requirements are to get into Heaven, and 3) what Jesus taught about sin. When one understands these three concepts, one will come to realize that a theology with only Heaven and Hell does not make sense.

In short, one must be perfect to enter heaven. Those who break the covenant however, and do not repent, get sent to Hell. In a theology with only Heaven and Hell, those who do not break the covenant (mortal sin) and as such do not merit hell, but who are not yet perfect and cannot get into Heaven, these have nowhere to go. It’s a catch 22 which is only solved by Purgatory.

Purgatory is a great mercy, a gift given to us by God for those who have remained faithful to the covenant but who are not yet perfect. Paul mentions it several times in scripture, as does Jesus.

For Jews, it is all about the covenant. We always have to look at scripture through the eyes of a Jew.

See The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory, or if you prefer a PDF, timhollingworth.webs.com/docs/catholic/04-the.biblical.basis.for.catholic.belief-purgatory.pdf

-Tim-