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pablope
Guest
So,Purgatory is an assumption???
The word Holy Spirit is not in the Bible…is that an assumption too?
I told you to refer to post 11 and 12…and purgatory is explained there in those links…did you bother to read them? All the Biblical references and evidence is in those two links.
I suggest you read those links before posting such statements as above…purgatory is not an assumption.
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onemangang
Guest
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Church_Militant
Guest
Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.
please see this article on my blog. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
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brb3
Guest
Your ‘Banana Peel’ premise is nutty !!! More like a Banana-split premise.Your Father above ABSOLVED YOU … and set 4 short Hails to Mary and 2 short Father Prayers as your Penance … which you did. You left the Confessional sinless, provided your heart was right with God. You go straight to HEAVEN, just as Christ told the Thief … “THIS DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE”.
this idea that you would still be locked IN JAIL, and need family, other Christians, and the Legion of Mary to BREAK YOU OUT … is looney. But, if you uttered a Curse Word on your way down to floor, taking Lord’s name in vain … yes, you would need to make amends before entry into the Lord’s presence. And, perhaps you might sit in jail … until your fellow parishioner who tossed banana peel on floor made full confession and did penance for their crime that injured you !!!
Am I wrong ?
D
david_friol_1
Guest
JJ I know the answer was already given quite well by others but I thought I would put a cent in myself if you do not mind.
It seems by your question and response that you may not actually be looking for an answer as much as you wish to point out some “man made invention”. I appreciate that and I tend to agree with you that it is a “man made invention”. It was invented, I guess you could say by “the MAN Jesus Christ” I’m sure if you were interested in the truth of the matter and gave a fair and honest assessment of the doctrine and eliminated all the falsely understood ideas that distort what is actually taught about purgatory. You would then search the scriptures with an open and clear mind to be able to discern whether it is reasonable to place your hope in the merciful love of Christ and the burning love of the Holy Spirit that “purges” all uncleannesses from those who place their trust in him. Praise be Jesus Christ and blessed be his Church
God bless you and all of your family!
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Equites_Christi
Guest
Wait a second.
So the holy souls in Purgatory need others for the fulfillment of their penance?
Meaning that, in theory, a soul could remain in purgatory forever if it had no one to pray for it?
I never thought that was Church teaching
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TraditonRules
Guest
Roman Catholic hermeneutics concerning supposed proof texts for purgatory violate all of these laws of hermeneutics.
There is no clear, plain, and simple text about purgatory, as there is about both heaven and hell. The Apocrypha cannot be placed equal to inspired Scripture. The Bible plainly speaks about life, death, and judgment: “And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We live,we die,we arejudged, we go to heaven or hell; and when Christ comes a second time the final judgment, final hell and final heaven arrive. There is no mention of postmortem purgation at all.
Purgatory is an extrabiblical idea,imported into the church in the Middle Ages-a product of tradition but not Scripture. And the Catholic efforts at grasping for hermeneutical straws to support this false belief-“fire,” “the age to come,” “souls in prison”-betray a lack of clear, precise, and biblical evidence for that place called purgatory…
There is no clear, plain, and simple text about purgatory, as there is about both heaven and hell. The Apocrypha cannot be placed equal to inspired Scripture. The Bible plainly speaks about life, death, and judgment: “And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We live,we die,we arejudged, we go to heaven or hell; and when Christ comes a second time the final judgment, final hell and final heaven arrive. There is no mention of postmortem purgation at all.
Purgatory is an extrabiblical idea,imported into the church in the Middle Ages-a product of tradition but not Scripture. And the Catholic efforts at grasping for hermeneutical straws to support this false belief-“fire,” “the age to come,” “souls in prison”-betray a lack of clear, precise, and biblical evidence for that place called purgatory…
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jschutzm
Guest
You seem to miss the point. I’m not saying that these bible verses can not be explained. They are perfectly explained. The question I ask is for the person who tries to say that there is NO biblical support.
If there is NO biblical support, then explains these verses. Note that people have given you links to other verses as ScriptureCatholic.com - so I was merely singling out 2.
The idea of Purgatory is not based on these 2 verses alone OR that Catholics simply can’t explain them, so they invented Purgatory.
That would be putting the cart before the Horse. The evidence from history is that the belief in Purgatory was part of the early Christian beliefs. It is what they were TAUGHT by the Apostles.
The verses in scripture simply back up what was taught and always believed.
So you have it backwards.
YES, this parable also reinforces the idea of Purgatory.
On a side note… what I ALSO find interesting is that non-Catholic Christians actually removed some of the biblical support for Purgatory when they threw out 7 books of the bible.
I find it somewhat convenient that they say “where is the support” when the Protestant Reformers of the past… the historical heritage of most non-Catholics, actually removed 1 of the earliest portrayals of Purgatory.
Ironic isn’t it?
And if you don’t know what I am referring to… then you need to brush up on your Christian History a bit.
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TimothyH
Guest
Being absolved of sin does not mean you will go straight to heaven.
Your Father above ABSOLVED YOU … and set 4 short Hails to Mary and 2 short Father Prayers as your Penance … which you did. You left the Confessional sinless, provided your heart was right with God. You go straight to HEAVEN, just as Christ told the Thief … “THIS DAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE”.
this idea that you would still be locked IN JAIL, and need family, other Christians, and the Legion of Mary to BREAK YOU OUT … is looney. But, if you uttered a Curse Word on your way down to floor, taking Lord’s name in vain … yes, you would need to make amends before entry into the Lord’s presence. And, perhaps you might sit in jail … until your fellow parishioner who tossed banana peel on floor made full confession and did penance for their crime that injured you !!!
Am I wrong ?
We have to be perfect to enter Heaven. Being forgiven is not the same as being perfect.
If you look in the Catechism, you will see that the sacrament of pennance is under the heading “Sacraments of Healing.” There is no category for sacraments of forgiveness. We all need forgiveness but if that is all you look for in the confessional then you are missing out. Christ does not want to just forgive us. Christ was a healer - he healed people of leaprosy (impurity), blindness (inability to see God’s will in one’s life), healed the lame (inability to walk upright before the Lord). Jesus was a healer. John the Baptist rightly called Christ the lamb who takes away sin.
Christ does not want to just forgive you. Christ wants to take away your sin. He wants to heal you. Christ wants to make you whole again - make you perfect - so that you have no inclination to do the sin any more, so that you do not desire the sin, so that you even forget what it was like to sin. Jesus want’s to take away your sin completely, so that you have no tendency to sin.
Paul understood man’s tendency to sin. He experienced it himself in a powerful way.
For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (Romans 7:22-24)
Paul understood the tendency to sin, what theologians call concupiscence. Paul understood concupiscence, and called himself “Wretched” because of it. The tendency to sin is what has to be purified. Paul understood and believed in the need for purgatory, as we can plainly see when he wrote of being surrounded by the “spirits of the just made perfect.” (cf Hebrews 12:23)
They are spirits and so are no longer physically alive on earth. That they are the spirits of those who have died is plain since we are surrounded by them. The spirits are justified and so are forgiven. But they are spirits who are purged of the tendency to sin - made perfect - after death. Purgatory… Bam! Right there.
Justified… forgiven… but not yet perfect.
The sacraments are not magic pills. Many non-Catholics think that we can just have some warm feelings toward Jesus, a simple desire to love him and do his will and we will automatically get into Heaven. They are mistaken. Many Catholics are equally mistaken when they think they can just go to confession and get into heaven. Salvation by confession alone is the Catholic version of the protestant version of salvation by faith alone. We have much work to do apart from confession.
The tendency to sin is what has to be purified.
-Tim-
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Abu
Guest
**The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: **
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”
So the Bible is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:
1) Mt 12:32: Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.
2) Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.
3) Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphaises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.
4) 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
Another example of purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”
So the Bible is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:
1) Mt 12:32: Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.
2) Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.
3) Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphaises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.
4) 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
Another example of purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.
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brb3
Guest
Oh really !!! We have no category … for the sacrament of forgiveness ?
Lets recall Christ healing the paralytic … after telling him his Sins were forgiven … on account of his faith, Christ restored his legs for walking. Also, the lady living in sin, who annointed Christ’s head with oil and washed his feet with her hair & tears … Christ said “Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are man, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
So … if we live the Beatitudes, with help of Christ, … this is what impresses Christ. Only our Gracious Works, via hearts of love, avail us of forgiveness of our many sins.
If we must be perfect to enter heaven … then no one will be in heaven. Christ said 'no one is good, but God alone. ’ He also taught … ‘let him w/o sin cast the first stone’ … and they all turned and walked away.
Scripture teaches we must all ‘make peace with God’ IN THIS WORLD … since none of the living were able to assist Lazarus in HELL, or was he only in Purgatory ?] It must of been Hell — if our prayers could not be efficacious to Lazarus !
The Law of Love [Beatitudes] are our Sacrament unto forgiveness. We must have a pure heart … to enter heaven, fully forgiven, and bypassing Purgatory !!!
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watchofagape
Guest
I just have to say that this concept is incorrect and is kind of like a belief that Mormons have.
If a person goes to confession and makes a good confession, receives absolution and penance, but fails to do their penance, they are still absolved of their sins. Fulfilling one’s penance is not necessary in order to be absolved. So if one dies before fulfilling their penance, they will probably go to purgatory in order to be purified, but this is NOT because they did not fulfill their penance. Even if they had fulfilled their penance, this still would have happened.
Mormons believe that they can baptize dead people. Saying that a soul in purgatory NEEDS a living person to pray them out of purgatory is false, and is comparable to the aforementioned Mormon belief. A soul has a set “time” in purgatory, and the prayers of the living faithful can only reduce that time, but the prayers are not needed to make time pass.
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twb1621
Guest
Purgatory is the process of purgation or purification for the remission of sins. No human being is without sin no matter how much we struggle to that end. That is not to say Christ can not determine a person has warranted Heaven without the need for purgation, but according to Church teaching the purification from sin under most circumstances must take place before a soul “of the just” can enter heaven or the soul must have been deemed by God to have been cleansed due to some other circumstances only God Himself can judge, such as perhaps martyrdom for instance. Christ in His Mercy forgives sins but does not purify us while we continue in our human journey. Though it is up to our Lord to decide the extent of each persons suffering in determining what is just in regard to Purgatory, the Catholic faith does not teach we go directly to Heaven without that purification as the norm.
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TimothyH
Guest
I’m sorry, but this is not what the Church teaches. Article 1030 of the Catechims makes this clear.
CCC 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
When we go to confession we are returned to a state of grace and friendship with God, but we may still need purification so that we can be perfect. We are absolved of sin through the sacrament of pennance. The sacrament does not make us perfectly holy.
I encourage you not to take my word for it. I’m sure you wont. Perhaps you can ask a spiritual director or trusted priest, or post the question in the Ask and Apologist forum so that the issue can be resolved.
-Tim-
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twb1621
Guest
That’s not such an unusual thought for someone to have. sometimes the more men performing a task, the quicker it gets done. Think of it this way, there is nothing that says the shortened time does not completely fulfill the purgation process. We can not know the mind of God obviously, but to use a simplified explanation, perhaps the process itself is intensified or the prayers we offer serve to cleanse that soul more effectively in less time. We as human beings tend to try and relate to the supernatural realm with sense perceptions in hope to better understand, but I prefer to think our prayers for those awaiting their complete remission of sin serve to intensify the effectiveness of purgation and that is how their time may be shortened. Stronger soap if you will….
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brb3
Guest
Where did Christ teach Article 1030, in scripture ? Christ taught Heaven & Hell … and it appears that Lazarus was viewed in Hell.
Where does Christ teach his forgiveness of sins was contingent upon a mid-level Purgatory ? Did not his blood shed at Calvary wash away our sins and PERFECTLY PURIFY us … upon our belief in Him & desire to become his Disciples.
We are being purified IN THIS WORLD, via suffering and perseverance in ‘gracious’ Works. Paul doesn’t teach Purgatory. He says “absent from the body, present with the Lord”. Purgatory would seem a cop-out … for those who don’t have Salvation Assurance, and need a second chance @ suffering, [cross bearing].
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TimothyH
Guest
brb, I love you too much to argue with you. Arguments, even sometimes freindly debate, often robs us of peace, and I find that Christ cannot operate unless I am at peace. I don’t want to rob you of that same peace either.
-Tim-
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