Purgatory?

[Pag_Hingowa]

Matthew 12:32 said:

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Since those in heaven no longer needs forgiveness and those in hell can no longer forgiven, where can there be forgiveness of sin in the next life?

Thoughts?

 

[anruari]

As a catholic the concept of purgatory is a required doctrine.
This comes from the old testament (Maccabees), The Gospel and the Epistles.

*What * you believe about purgatory is mostly undefined.
It is a period which many people will pass through as part of Judgement, where or when because they have been given and are accepting Gods Forgiveness, but have residual attachment to this world and to Sin(s) they are not completely pure - yet.
Purgatory is the process by which we are then washed clean of all attachment to this world and to sin so we may enter His Presence fully and totally.
This process is likely to be painful for many. - but it is entered into with Hope as you know you are being forgiven and where you are heading to.

I see it a bit like this:

I am baptised. I have therefore inherited the Salvation of the Cross.
Gods forgivness has been given to me on a plate (so to speak)… in fact it has been given to me in the bowl of baptismal waters, and in the Chalice and Ciborium used at Mass.

However much like when you are growing up and have done something very naughty sometimes it is very difficult to face up to your parents. You know they will forgive you… but you will need to face up to what you have done and submitt to your parents.
Similarly it can be difficult to face your wife or husband after gravely offending them. Humbly asking for and accepting their forgiveness - even when you are confident that it will be given can be painful.

I see the moment of Gods Judgement as follows:
We have all sinned. The wages of Sin are Death. We will all be judged and found guilty - but also given the pardon of Christ’s Crucifixion.
As committed Christians we have already accepted and thanked the Lord for that sacrifice… but when confronted with the full reality of it when we see Him face to face we will ultimately Judge ourselves.

We all know of people who have seen bad things happen to family or even strangers and been totally unable to forgive themselves for surviving the situation (Survivor Guilt) or for what they did causing the situation. How much more will we all feel like that when we see what we did to Our Lord?

We will be confronted with our Guilt. We will be offered Forgiveness. We will then have the choice.
*Finally and fully accept His Forgiveness… knowing what we did to him
*Walk away - cast ourselves out of his presence. - forever.

The second option is momentarily easy - but irredemable. you leave his presence fully that becomes the state known as “Hell” in modern parlence. being totally outside the Presence of the Loving God. It is the worst torture which exists in the Universe - or beyond.

The first Option is what we hope for. But it may be far from easy. So convicted of our Guilt and Shame. Still attached to and proud of actions which were sinful. Still attached to people, Goods, habits and everything else in this world.
Letting go of all of that. Being completely cleaned of it. If is not likely to be an instantaneous process. It is likely to really hurt for most of us.
That process is Purgatory.
Purgatory - the place of Purging. Purging of everything left in me after I die that is not Good. that is not from God.

Purgatory is a great Gift from God.
I sin every day. I have sinfull habits I am unable to break free from. I do not live a live of heroic virtue.
If I died today what hope would I have of accepting Gods salvation if I was not able to wash first.?

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

As a catholic the concept of purgatory is a required doctrine.
This comes from the old testament (Maccabees), The Gospel and the Epistles.

But since Protestants do not accept 2 Maccabees as canonical, I hope someone can address this using historical proof (Jewish’s Mourner’s Kaddish and during the intertestamentary period)

 

[marian_love]

But since Protestants do not accept 2 Maccabees as canonical, I hope someone can address this using historical proof (Jewish’s Mourner’s Kaddish and during the intertestamentary period)

Protestants don’t believe in purgatory. I have never had them give an answer to this passage except the old line “There are some things we are not meant to understand.” I can’t tell you how many times I heard that growing up…

 

[Gonsalogarcia]

As a catholic the concept of purgatory is a required doctrine.
This comes from the old testament (Maccabees), The Gospel and the Epistles.

*What * you believe about purgatory is mostly undefined.
It is a period which many people will pass through as part of Judgement, where or when because they have been given and are accepting Gods Forgiveness, but have residual attachment to this world and to Sin(s) they are not completely pure - yet.
Purgatory is the process by which we are then washed clean of all attachment to this world and to sin so we may enter His Presence fully and totally.
This process is likely to be painful for many. - but it is entered into with Hope as you know you are being forgiven and where you are heading to.

I see it a bit like this:

I am baptised. I have therefore inherited the Salvation of the Cross.
Gods forgivness has been given to me on a plate (so to speak)… in fact it has been given to me in the bowl of baptismal waters, and in the Chalice and Ciborium used at Mass.

However much like when you are growing up and have done something very naughty sometimes it is very difficult to face up to your parents. You know they will forgive you… but you will need to face up to what you have done and submitt to your parents.
Similarly it can be difficult to face your wife or husband after gravely offending them. Humbly asking for and accepting their forgiveness - even when you are confident that it will be given can be painful.

I see the moment of Gods Judgement as follows:
We have all sinned. The wages of Sin are Death. We will all be judged and found guilty - but also given the pardon of Christ’s Crucifixion.
As committed Christians we have already accepted and thanked the Lord for that sacrifice… but when confronted with the full reality of it when we see Him face to face we will ultimately Judge ourselves.

We all know of people who have seen bad things happen to family or even strangers and been totally unable to forgive themselves for surviving the situation (Survivor Guilt) or for what they did causing the situation. How much more will we all feel like that when we see what we did to Our Lord?

We will be confronted with our Guilt. We will be offered Forgiveness. We will then have the choice.
*Finally and fully accept His Forgiveness… knowing what we did to him
*Walk away - cast ourselves out of his presence. - forever.

The second option is momentarily easy - but irredemable. you leave his presence fully that becomes the state known as “Hell” in modern parlence. being totally outside the Presence of the Loving God. It is the worst torture which exists in the Universe - or beyond.

The first Option is what we hope for. But it may be far from easy. So convicted of our Guilt and Shame. Still attached to and proud of actions which were sinful. Still attached to people, Goods, habits and everything else in this world.
Letting go of all of that. Being completely cleaned of it. If is not likely to be an instantaneous process. It is likely to really hurt for most of us.
That process is Purgatory.
Purgatory - the place of Purging. Purging of everything left in me after I die that is not Good. that is not from God.

Purgatory is a great Gift from God.
I sin every day. I have sinfull habits I am unable to break free from. I do not live a live of heroic virtue.
If I died today what hope would I have of accepting Gods salvation if I was not able to wash first.?

I consider Purgatory more a matter of purification rather than forgiveness. The concept being the one I attach to the feast of the Purification of Our Lady.

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

Protestants don’t believe in purgatory. I have never had them give an answer to this passage except the old line “There are some things we are not meant to understand.” I can’t tell you how many times I heard that growing up…

Care to expound why purgatory has no place in Protestant theology?

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

I consider Purgatory more a matter of purification rather than forgiveness. The concept being the one I attach to the feast of the Purification of Our Lady.

I agree. Purging (or purification) is the basis for the concept of Purgatory.

InLuke 16:19-31 - Where do you think Abraham go?

It read:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[CatherineOH]

and why as a Protestant (Lutheran) I was taught about Purgatory.
But then Lutherans are not that far from the Mother Church.

The Methodists rather just left it as something yet to be understood, but most likely was describing Hell. or a Place of the Dead not Hell, but also those who are not yet able to reach heaven (not Purgatory specifically as a place of purification)… in limbo so to speak.
They did teach that indeed Moses and the Prophets should be listed to and our lives guided by the lessons.

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

and why as a Protestant (Lutheran) I was taught about Purgatory.
But then Lutherans are not that far from the Mother Church.

The Methodists rather just left it as something yet to be understood, but most likely was describing Hell. or a Place of the Dead not Hell, but also those who are not yet able to reach heaven (not Purgatory specifically as a place of purification)… in limbo so to speak.
They did teach that indeed Moses and the Prophets should be listed to and our lives guided by the lessons.

I am interested to see Methodists view on Matthew 5:26 "You will not come out of it till you pay the last penny” and Mt. 18:23-35. After death, where do souls suffer for their sins?

Do they agree that the attributes of God are His holiness, justice, mercy and love?

 

[CatherineOH]

I don’t know.
I was raised Lutheran and as a family we went to a United Methodist church close to the house when they tore the Lutheran one down to make way for a freeway.

We moved a couple years after that and another Methodist church (my mom is, or was Methodist currently attending Lutheran) where I joined as a teenager/adult. We moved after 8 years. I can honestly say the subject never came up.

I floated between many churches only attending services and an occasional bible study till it was obvious that my understanding of the theology only lead to arguments and that they had a distorted view on what the bible said.

I’m 50 now, and have floated between churches for 20 - 30 years mostly attending Lutheran and Catholic churches and studies. I have grown much over this time, and I have come home this year to the Catholic Church. (I’m not a ‘joiner’, nor do I make decisions lightly. I did spend years where I didn’t attend as well, but continued in study where I found the CCC and several documents and books written by Pope JP II) During this floating time, I came to the understanding that most non denominational members don’t really have a clue on what ‘their church’ is teaching. Worse, most folks don’t really know what they believe.
When they are thrown such a question as you ask here do expect a wide eyed should shrug and an I dunno, or worse, some unsupported statement of nullification that it doesn’t say what we think it says.

So, Idonno what a Methodist would say. I formally removed my letter from the Methodist churches in 1989. long after I ceased attending.

 

[anruari]

Here’s the Catholic.com tract on the topic

catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

 

[pablope]

Care to expound why purgatory has no place in Protestant theology?

This is an exhaustive article on purgatory by Scott Hahn…Purgatory-Holy Fire…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Well…as to your question of why protestants do not believe in purgatory…it started with abuses in practice during the 1500s…selling of indulgences…and the misunderstanding of what Purgatory is…the Reformers led by Luther did not agree with the conception of purgatory as a place and time…which the Church has not taught by the way.

Briefly…this is a complicated subject…So, as new leaders succeeded the original reformers…with no authoritative teaching authority to pass on the original teachings of the reformers…each protestant generation got farther and farther away from what the Original Reformers taught…and so, farther and farther away from what Christianity has always taught and believed…an example is purgatory.

 

[Mystophilus]

Matthew 12:32 said:

Since those in heaven no longer needs forgiveness and those in hell can no longer forgiven, where can there be forgiveness of sin in the next life?

Thoughts?

If you are asking, “What would an Evangelical Protestant make of this?”, I expect that the comment would be that the lack of forgiveness in the age to come would be taken as a lack of forgiveness at the Judgement, i.e. that they would view the Judgement as the beginning of the next age rather than the end of this one.

As to why *most *Protestants do not believe in Purgatory, I rather suspect that it is because a/ the Bible does not unambiguously proclaim it, and b/ Catholics *do *believe in it. Part of the theological difference between Protestantism and Catholicism has been hermeneutic (i.e. results of interpretational method), but part has been purely political.

Personally, I think that Purgatory makes a lot of sense.

 

[thistle]

Matthew 12:32 said:

Since those in heaven no longer needs forgiveness and those in hell can no longer forgiven, where can there be forgiveness of sin in the next life?

Thoughts?

D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 32. Whosoever, &c. It was their duty to have a knowledge of the Holy Ghost, and they obstinately refused to admit what was clear and manifest. Though they were ignorant of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and might take him to be merely the son of a poor artizan, they could not be ignorant that the expelling of demons, and miraculous healing of all diseases, were the works of the Holy Ghost. If, therefore, they refused to do penance for the insult offered to the Spirit of God, in the person of Christ, they could not hope to escape condign punishment. (St. Chrysostom, hom. xlii). — Against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; i.e. they who for want of sufficient instruction, were invincibly ignorant that Christ was God, might more easily be brought to the true knowledge and faith of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of their sins: but if he shall speak against the Holy Ghost, i.e. against the Spirit of God in Christ, and shall oppose the known truth, by attributing to the devil that doctrine, and those miracles, which evidently were from the Spirit and the hand of God, that sin shall never be forgiven him. But how is this consistent with the Catholic doctrine and belief, that there is no sin any man commits of which he may not obtain pardon in this life? To this I answer, that in what manner soever we expound this place, it is an undoubted point of Christian faith, that there is no sin which our merciful God is not ready to pardon; no sin, for the remission of which, God hath not left a power in his Church, as it is clearly proved by those words, Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, &c. St. Chrysostom therefore expounds these words, shall not be forgiven them, to imply no more, than shall scarcely, or seldom be forgiven; that is, it is very hard for such sinners to return to God, by a true and sincere repentance and conversion; so that this sentence is like to that (Matthew xix. 26.) where Christ seems to call it an impossible thing for a rich man to be saved. In the same place St. Chrysostom tells us, that some of those who had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, repented, and had their sins forgiven them. St. Augustine, by this blasphemy against the Spirit, understands the sin of final impenitence, by which an obstinate sinner refuseth to be converted, and therefore lives and dies hardened in his sins. (Witham) — Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) — St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. — It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)

 

[Crumpy]

There is no central “magisterium” in Judaism. so, there are different beliefs in Judaism.

I’ve done a lot of reading in Jewish books, so I don’t know where I picked it up. But, there is a belief in something that is at least “like” purgatory, and they rationalize that it is a period of preparation, if not some sort of cleansing itself, before one goes into the presence of the Almighty.

Different subject: The Jews observe that there are seven words used for heaven in the Jewish bible. I confirmed this, in my humble way, but looking at Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. They figured there must be seven levels of heaven. They speculate that each region is so vast, that it would take a man 500 years to travel through each level. G-d resides in the highest or 7th heaven.

They also note that scripture portrays God’s transcendence, which is his remoteness, yet simultaneously attribute to God his nearness, to hear even a whispered prayer.

 

[bmonk]

From what I know of most Protestant theology, purgatory is unnecessary.

We are completely saved by the Blood of the Lamb. That means that, having repented, no further repentance is needed. (Some take this further to say that even further sin is impossible, but that seems to contradict some of what St. Paul says.)

Also, to use Martin Luther’s image, our sin is like a pile of horse manure. God’s grace is like the snow that covers it. Given that the manure is still under the snow, according to this theology, purgatory makes no sense: the manure is still there, and will always be there, but is covered over by grace.

However, the Catholic understanding of grace, that it roots out sin, makes purgatory more meaningful: now the process of grace may be incomplete at death. We may have accepted grace and been forgiven, but we are still attached to sin, or carrying a burden of venial sins. Do we carry this attachment into heaven? If we could, would we really be satisfied in heaven? Can heaven encompass such a sinful person and still be perfect, still heaven?

This is an unacceptable situation. Hence we need that time after death to complete the purgation of all sin and all attachment to sin, so that we may be fit for heaven and able to enjoy it fully.

 

[Pag_Hingowa]

There is no central “magisterium” in Judaism. so, there are different beliefs in Judaism.

I’ve done a lot of reading in Jewish books, so I don’t know where I picked it up. But, there is a belief in something that is at least “like” purgatory, and they rationalize that it is a period of preparation, if not some sort of cleansing itself, before one goes into the presence of the Almighty.

Different subject: The Jews observe that there are seven words used for heaven in the Jewish bible. I confirmed this, in my humble way, but looking at Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. They figured there must be seven levels of heaven. They speculate that each region is so vast, that it would take a man 500 years to travel through each level. G-d resides in the highest or 7th heaven.

They also note that scripture portrays God’s transcendence, which is his remoteness, yet simultaneously attribute to God his nearness, to hear even a whispered prayer.

Mourner’s Kaddish is a Jewish practice of praying for the dead.

 

[Porknpie]

From what I know of most Protestant theology, purgatory is unnecessary.

We are completely saved by the Blood of the Lamb. That means that, having repented, no further repentance is needed. (Some take this further to say that even further sin is impossible, but that seems to contradict some of what St. Paul says.)

Also, to use Martin Luther’s image, our sin is like a pile of horse manure. God’s grace is like the snow that covers it. Given that the manure is still under the snow, according to this theology, purgatory makes no sense: the manure is still there, and will always be there, but is covered over by grace.

However, the Catholic understanding of grace, that it roots out sin, makes purgatory more meaningful: now the process of grace may be incomplete at death. We may have accepted grace and been forgiven, but we are still attached to sin, or carrying a burden of venial sins. Do we carry this attachment into heaven? If we could, would we really be satisfied in heaven? Can heaven encompass such a sinful person and still be perfect, still heaven?

This is an unacceptable situation. Hence we need that time after death to complete the purgation of all sin and all attachment to sin, so that we may be fit for heaven and able to enjoy it fully.

I would add that to be in heaven we need to be free from sin and the desire to sin. As nothing unclean can enter heaven, in its simplest terms, purgatory is the cleansing process before we can enter heaven. Jesus died for us yes, but we still need to be cleansed prior to heavenly entry. How long this takes is not clear, it may be very quick for some and nothing in the bible, nor does the church say, that we would rather be on earth than be in purgatory.

 

[frantony]

From what I know of most Protestant theology, purgatory is unnecessary.

We are completely saved by the Blood of the Lamb. That means that, having repented, no further repentance is needed. (Some take this further to say that even further sin is impossible, but that seems to contradict some of what St. Paul says.)

Also, to use Martin Luther’s image, our sin is like a pile of horse manure. God’s grace is like the snow that covers it. Given that the manure is still under the snow, according to this theology, purgatory makes no sense: the manure is still there, and will always be there, but is covered over by grace.

*God’s grace does cover us. But there is something we also have to do to be worthy of entering heaven. We have to repent, die and be born again. We will not be admitted in the filthy condition we are in. This is like a diseased mango tree dying and a healthy mango tree growing up from the rot of the dead diseased tree. Only healthy mango trees will be allowed into heaven, Jesus will not try to smuggle in diseased plants covering it with snow.
Those who had died, decomposed completely (spiritually), and was born again in this world, will not need further purification before going to heaven.
Jesus avoided contact with the world after his resurrection before going to heaven out of fear of getting contaminated.
But the rest of us except St. Mary Mother of God requires purification (complete melt down and recasting into a new mould) before we would be fit for eternal heaven.
Also there are several grades of heaven, through which we may have to pass through to achieve increasingly higher grades of purification before we will be admitted in to the highest heaven. *

However, the Catholic understanding of grace, that it roots out sin, makes purgatory more meaningful: now the process of grace may be incomplete at death. We may have accepted grace and been forgiven, but we are still attached to sin, or carrying a burden of venial sins. Do we carry this attachment into heaven? If we could, would we really be satisfied in heaven? Can heaven encompass such a sinful person and still be perfect, still heaven?
This is an unacceptable situation. Hence we need that time after death to complete the purgation of all sin and all attachment to sin, so that we may be fit for heaven and able to enjoy it fully.

"]Jesus then goes on to expand and throw more light on the issue of reward and punishment.
That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating.
But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a** light beating**. (Luke 12:47-48a)
*We are all to familiar with the two groups in which disciples will be separated on judgment day: the sheep on the right and the goats on the left, the blessed and the accursed, the faithful and the unfaithful. But what is this extra teaching that Jesus gives here on those who will receive “a light beating?” Surely it is not the blessed in heaven for they receive no beating at all. And it is not the accursed in hell for they receive a severe beating.
Passages like this lead one to the conclusion that beside heaven and hell, there is an in-between state of remedial punishment. Catholic teaching calls it purgatory, a state of temporary, remedial punishment for believers who die in venial sin. They cannot be admitted to heaven directly because they have guilt and yet they cannot be consigned to everlasting punishment in hell because their sin is not mortal (1 John 5:16-17). Many Protestant Christians have a problem with the doctrine of purgatory. One reason for this is that the Reformation Bible does not include some of the books in the Catholic Bible, such as 2 Maccabees, which clearly support this doctrine. But the doctrine of purgatory makes sense, especially in light of biblical passages, such as today’s gospel, that provide a third alternative to outright blessing and outright condemnation.
*

 

[Able_minded]

Purgatory is based in tradition but not explicit in any measure biblically.