purgatory

[Gorgias]

Hmm… some interesting assertions in this thread…

To the question of purgatory, it’s not only about “temporal punishment due to sin”, but also about the forgiveness of venial sin not already forgiven while the person lived.

By that standard, then, baptized children who haven’t yet “reached the age of reason” might have venial sin on their soul, and therefore, might need purgation.

Also, I’m not certain that “right disposition” implies “no attachment to sin” in this context. Because…

… for those who just happen to not have their Enchiridion of Indulgences handy…

28 – The Moment of Death

To the faithful in danger of death, who cannot be assisted by a priest to bring them the sacraments and impart the Apostolic Blessing with its plenary indulgence (see can. 468 §2 of Code of Canon Law), Holy Mother Church nevertheless grants a plenary indulgence to be acquired at the point of death, provided they are properly disposed and have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime. The use of a crucifix or a cross to gain this indulgence is praiseworthy.

The condition: provided they have been in the habit of reciting some prayers during their lifetime supplies in such cases for the three usual conditions required for the gaining of a plenary indulgence.

The plenary indulgence at the point of death can be acquired by the faithful, even if they have already obtained another plenary indulgence on the same day.

The above grant is taken from the Apostolic Constitution The Doctrine of Indulgences, Norm 18

(All emphases original).

So, in a single context, we see both “proper disposition” and a relaxation of the three normal conditions (which would include “detachment from sin”). It doesn’t stand to reason, then, that the norms simultaneously are saying “detachment” and “relaxation from the condition of detachment.”

The text also refers to canon 468 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

Paroeho aliive sacerdoti qui infirmis assistat, facultas est eis concedendi benedictionem apostolicam cum indulgentia plenaria in articulo mortis, secundum formam a probatis liturgicis libris traditam, quam benedictionem impertiri ne omittat.

The relevant canons in the 1983 CIC are found in the chapter on “parishes, pastors, and parochial vicars”:

Can. 529 §1: [A] pastor… is to visit families, sharing especially in the cares, anxieties, and griefs of the faithful. … With generous love he is to help the sick, particularly those close to death, by refreshing them solicitously with the sacraments and commending their souls to God.

Can. 530: The following functions are especially entrusted to a pastor:
3/ the administration of Viaticum and of the anointing of the sick… and the imparting of the apostolic blessing

So, to sum up: it was a real thing back in the 1917 Code, and it’s still a real thing now. In the discussion of the ‘alternative’ method of receiving the indulgence, it mentions that the normal three conditions are set aside, so it’s pretty reasonable to assume that if the alternative method doesn’t require them, neither does the normative method. So, “detachment from sin” seems like something that isn’t required for this particular indulgence as the person approaches the moment of death.

What an awesome example of God’s mercy and grace being imparted on His people at the moments when we need it most!

 

[flower_lady]

Hmm… some interesting assertions in this thread…

To the question of purgatory, it’s not only about “temporal punishment due to sin”, but also about the forgiveness of venial sin not already forgiven while the person lived.

By that standard, then, baptized children who haven’t yet “reached the age of reason” might have venial sin on their soul, and therefore, might need purgation.

Also, I’m not certain that “right disposition” implies “no attachment to sin” in this context. Because…

… for those who just happen to not have their Enchiridion of Indulgences handy…

(All emphases original).

So, in a single context, we see both “proper disposition” and a relaxation of the three normal conditions (which would include “detachment from sin”). It doesn’t stand to reason, then, that the norms simultaneously are saying “detachment” and “relaxation from the condition of detachment.”

The text also refers to canon 468 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

The relevant canons in the 1983 CIC are found in the chapter on “parishes, pastors, and parochial vicars”:

So, to sum up: it was a real thing back in the 1917 Code, and it’s still a real thing now. In the discussion of the ‘alternative’ method of receiving the indulgence, it mentions that the normal three conditions are set aside, so it’s pretty reasonable to assume that if the alternative method doesn’t require them, neither does the normative method. So, “detachment from sin” seems like something that isn’t required for this particular indulgence as the person approaches the moment of death.

What an awesome example of God’s mercy and grace being imparted on His people at the moments when we need it most!

My daughter delivered a baby that weighed only 1 lb. My other daughter and I went to the Our Lady Of Lourdes Shrine in Detroit and I ask her that if it was not the will of God that this baby survive to please let her live long enough to be baptized. She answered my prayer. This baby was suffering from the time of birth and my daughter wanted to keep her on life support, but her sister ask her to please let them unplug her because you could tell she was struggling to breath. She had only lived an hour. She died and just before she died, twice the clock in her room circled around and around suddenly. They have pictures on it on their phones. My daughter went out into the hall to see if the clock was spinning and it was not. Only in that room. She said she for a moment was in a little bit of fear because she felt a strong presence that someone else was in the room. We found out that the when the clock stopped spinning that it had stopped at the same time the baby had been born. She had held the child and they cried and cried but excepted it. Now, I pray to my sweet grandchild all the time, because I am pretty sure that that was an angel or our Lady that my daughter felt that some spirit was in the room. I just truly don’t think she went to purgatory. Not only that, but I believe God sent an angel to bring her to his Kingdom. I was not there but all that were tell the same story. She I believe went directly to heaven and is a saint. Just wanted to share this story with everybody. God bless you all. Oh I asked my priest, and he agrees, he say’s she is a saint and that it is ok for me to pray to her.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

Do all souls that will get to heaven when they die go to purgatory first, even the souls that have been canalized saints?

All souls in heaven are saints. Being canonized just means the Church is sure they are in heaven.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

dummies.com/religion/christianity/catholicism/defining-saints-in-the-catholic-church/

 

[Dorothy]

All souls in heaven are saints. Being canonized just means the Church is sure they are in heaven.

I believe also that it is because the saints lived heroic virtue.

They inspire us, and the Lord can make saints out of us as well. He gifts all of us with virtues if we let Him sanctify us.

 

[Gorgias]

I just truly don’t think she went to purgatory. Not only that, but I believe God sent an angel to bring her to his Kingdom. I was not there but all that were tell the same story. She I believe went directly to heaven and is a saint.

I would have to agree: baptism + no subsequent personal sin = heaven.

Although Evan talked about “baptized babies”, he talked about the “age of discernment”, which usually refers to a timeframe roughly around the age children receive their first reconciliation and First Holy Communion. It was these to whom I was referring, not to babies; children are able to sin venially.

 

[flower_lady]

All souls in heaven are saints. Being canonized just means the Church is sure they are in heaven.

Oh yes, I know that all souls in heaven are saints.

 

[e_c]

To the question of purgatory, it’s not only about “temporal punishment due to sin”, but also about the forgiveness of venial sin not already forgiven while the person lived.

And the shedding of attachments to everything other than God… which does not seem to covered by the application of indulgences. I have sporadically searched for confirmation of this without success (nor finding the opposite), but I might use some time tomorrow to find it in Denzinger or maybe in some authoritative author.