Purgatory

[Wondering26]

Hi All,

I’m hoping someone can help me with this question. I’ve become curious lately about Catholic doctrine–right now especially on Purgatory. I read an illustration in which the priest used the analogy of a broken pitcher of orange juice; even though he had been forgiven, the mess still needed to be cleaned up, and that’s where Purgatory came into play.

But when I read 1 John 1:9, it says that “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Since there’s no specific time mentioned, I have to assume that God would purify me right then and there. So why would Purgatory be necessary?

Thanks,
Wondering26

 

[mercygate]

Hi All,

I’m hoping someone can help me with this question. I’ve become curious lately about Catholic doctrine–right now especially on Purgatory. I read an illustration in which the priest used the analogy of a broken pitcher of orange juice; even though he had been forgiven, the mess still needed to be cleaned up, and that’s where Purgatory came into play.

But when I read 1 John 1:9, it says that “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Since there’s no specific time mentioned, I have to assume that God would purify me right then and there. So why would Purgatory be necessary?

Thanks,
Wondering26

Since there is no specific time mentioned why would one assume that God would purify you right then and there?

 

[Wondering26]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

 

[mercygate]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

Before launching into a great big apologetic for the doctrine of Purgatory, I would like to look at your statements:

"it just seems to me . . "

“Just seems hard for me to grasp”

Let’s clarify: Are you proposing that your personal starting point here of what this looks like to you is more than a jumping-off point for exploration of this dogma?

A lot of things that even Protestants believe are not explicity laid out in so many words on the fact of Scripture – the Trinity is the classic example. There are many scriptural passages that point toward a place of purification after death (“nothing unclean shall enter” the heavenly Jerusalem).

You could start with this brief description of the doctrine.

 

[Lillith]

Amen Mercygate:thumbsup:

I most often just wish for folks to understand that the Doctrines of the Church are Biblical…It is not necessary (to me anyway) that everyone agrees with the Catholic interpretation (that need leads to frustration)…just that they understand where the teaching is found in scripture.

**
Passage 1 Corinthians 3:14-15:
14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
.**

This is the passage that I think of immediately as direct backing for the Church and her teaching.

Where is this place that he will suffer loss but still be saved, as one escaping through flames? There is no loss in Heaven…can’t be there…true…there is fire in Hell, but no hope for salvation…

Paul is describing a cleansing third place…the Church’s teaching…Purgation…or purgatory. Remembering that nothing unclean shall enter heaven…to me this teaching is the easiest Catholic doctrine to understand once one sees the scripture.

Passage Revelation 21:27:
27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful

That covers everyone but the most saintly who have conquered Sin to perfection (working toward it…but that ain’t me ) I am very relieved that God has a process for folks such as myself.

 

[antonius]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

We might find it just as hard to grasp why God would “wait” for centuries, after the fall of man, to bring salvation to mankind. Why not right then and there?

I certainly do take God at His word that He will purify us from all unrighteousness. But God’s Word also cautions us about assuming that we understand his timing: “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Pt 3:8).

 

[Fidelis]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

Again, it doesn’t say right away. *So you must conclude that this verse does not address the time purification must occur. *Thus this verse is not applicable to what you are trying to find out. Let it go and look elsewhere, as others have suggested. Don’t make the mistake many fundamentalists make by seeing a doctrine in a single verse and making the Faith conform to that interpretation.

 

[Verita]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

But have you been purified from unrighteousness, right then and there? Or do you continue to sin?

I for one know that no matter how many times I repent I still end up falling into sinful ways: selfishness, greed, etc. And I know that when I repent God does forgive me, but I still sin afterward. From that it would seem obvious that I have not yet been purified from unrighteousness even though I have been forgiven. Being purified from unrighteousness is not something that God just does to us. It is something that needs our cooperation, because of Free Will. No matter what Graces God gives me or how often He forgives me I can still continue to sin because I choose to. We can be purified in this life (as in the examples of the Saints) but it takes a mighty effort of cooperation with God’s Will and His Grace. Most of us won’t live up to the example of the Saints and we will have to go to purgatory because out of our own rebelliousness we have resisted purification.

 

[Veritas41]

We as Catholics believe than when we sincerely repent and confess our sins we are forgiven at that time, but we also believe in the need for purification from sin. Think about it – how many times have you asked God forgiveness for a particular sin (gossip, losing your temper, whatever) and then gone right out and committed it again. God forgives, but we are still attached to our sin, which is why we keep committing it. Removing the attachment to sin is purification, and that is a process (usually), and most of us die attached to at least some sin so hence the need for purgatory to remove (purify) the attachment to sin so we can be made perfect to enter the holy presence of God in heaven

 

[Pryority7]

Purgatory is the final phase of our cleansing that is happening now. When we allow God to come into our lives, He starts to clean us, bit by bit. This may come in way of even suffering that we go through in this life, but He is with us every step of the way. Purgatory is simply the finishing of this cleansing that is happening now. To give up your life for the faith (become a martyr) is be completely cleansed because you gave up the most precious thing (your earthly life) for the sake of the Gospel.
Purgatory is not for the damned. It’s for the saved and is part of the salvation process that we all must go through, not the “once saved always saved” that other christians may believe.
P7

 

[kleary]

I guess it just seems to me that if God had intended to purify us at a later date, it would say that. It just seems hard for me to grasp why God would wait to purify me from unrighteousness instead of just doing it right then and there…

Well… sometimes He does.

I had an argument with my wife one day. I called her bad names.

I felt really guilty about it for I sinned against her for the things I said.

I then went to confession. My sin was forgiven.

When I got home I found my wife had left taking the children and all their stuff. I felt so hurt.

A few hours later I found them at a local motel and broke down in tears telling her I was sorry for what I said.

The pain I felt was the EFFECT of the SIN I committed even though I was forgiven.

Now Jesus paid for that sin. But I still had to suffer for it.

Ken

 

[deb1]

Once, I attended a Baptist’s Sunday School. A student asked why we would no longer be jealous of one another in heaven. The teacher responded that after death we would be instantly changed and cleansed of all our imperfections. He had no idea that he was describing Purgatory!

 

[Lillith]

Once, I attended a Baptist’s Sunday School. A student asked why we would no longer be jealous of one another in heaven. The teacher responded that after death we would be instantly changed and cleansed of all our imperfections. He had no idea that he was describing Purgatory!

Awesome Deb…

That is as clear as the day is long…now the only thing left to explain is the fact that instantly to God doesn’t account for man’s definition of “instantly”

God Bless

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Hi All,

I’m hoping someone can help me with this question. I’ve become curious lately about Catholic doctrine–right now especially on Purgatory. I read an illustration in which the priest used the analogy of a broken pitcher of orange juice; even though he had been forgiven, the mess still needed to be cleaned up, and that’s where Purgatory came into play.

But when I read 1 John 1:9, it says that “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Since there’s no specific time mentioned, I have to assume that God would purify me right then and there. So why would Purgatory be necessary?

Thanks,
Wondering26

Your presupposition is wrong, i.e., that Catholic doctrine is derived from Scripture. It is not. Long before the canon of scripture was finally settled in the 390’s, the early bible christians, who were all Catholic, except for the heretics, believed in purgatory because that is what the apostles, including St. Paul, taught in the gospel they preached.

They learned this gospel from Jesus himself. And since no book of the bible claims to summarize the gospel as preached by St Paul, Peter & the other apostles, it is futile to try to figure out what this gospel is that St. Paul et al preached (faith comes by hearing) by reading scripture.

Scripture does not interpret itself nor does it force its explanation on anyone. Nor is it clear on any single point, which is why the church Jesus founded has one set of beliefs (the gospel) and the non-catholic christians’ beliefs are all over the map, so to speak, with over 20,000 different denominations. They have no unanimity on any doctrinal point derived from the bible except for a few things such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

The only way to know what the gospel is as preached by St Paul et al is to look at Catholic Apostolic Tradition, i.e., what the apostles believed and taught and practiced. One can find this in the Roman Catechism, the Baltimore Cathechism and the new Catechism.

One can also look at the early christians who were taught by the apostles to get a glimpse as to what the content of the gospel is. The doctrine these writers, known as the Fathers of the Church, reflect in their writings correspond to the doctrine of only one Church today - the Catholic Church.

All of the bible christians, and those of the second, third and fourth centuries, believed in purgatory, praying to the saints in heaven, honoring Mary, celebrating Mass, the need for baptism, the ordained priesthood, honoring and obeying St Peter’s successor, mortal sin, etc.

Then in 390 or so the bible, which is a narrative of salvation history, i.e., how God has intervened in history to save mankind, was defined. The bible is a narrative of salvation history, it is NOT a catechism. That’s why the church periodically publishes catechisms, so people will know what the basic content of the gospel as preached by the apostles (of course doctrined has developed so not everything in the new catechism was preached by St. Paul, e.g. invitro fertilization, but it is follows from the basics).

Even M. Luther believed the above paragraph as he wrote two catechisms - the small and the large. So if one wants to know what the gospel is read the above three catechisms. To try to figure it out from scriptural exegesis is an exercise in futility as Jesus did not say to read the bible to get the gospel but to listen to his church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[steve99]

Your presupposition is wrong, i.e., that Catholic doctrine is derived from Scripture. It is not. Long before the canon of scripture was finally settled in the 390’s, the early bible christians, who were all Catholic, except for the heretics, believed in purgatory because that is what the apostles, including St. Paul, taught in the gospel they preached.

They learned this gospel from Jesus himself. And since no book of the bible claims to summarize the gospel as preached by St Paul, Peter & the other apostles, it is futile to try to figure out what this gospel is that St. Paul et al preached (faith comes by hearing) by reading scripture.

Scripture does not interpret itself nor does it force its explanation on anyone. Nor is it clear on any single point, which is why the church Jesus founded has one set of beliefs (the gospel) and the non-catholic christians’ beliefs are all over the map, so to speak, with over 20,000 different denominations. They have no unanimity on any doctrinal point derived from the bible except for a few things such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus.

The only way to know what the gospel is as preached by St Paul et al is to look at Catholic Apostolic Tradition, i.e., what the apostles believed and taught and practiced. One can find this in the Roman Catechism, the Baltimore Cathechism and the new Catechism.

One can also look at the early christians who were taught by the apostles to get a glimpse as to what the content of the gospel is. The doctrine these writers, known as the Fathers of the Church, reflect in their writings correspond to the doctrine of only one Church today - the Catholic Church.

All of the bible christians, and those of the second, third and fourth centuries, believed in purgatory, praying to the saints in heaven, honoring Mary, celebrating Mass, the need for baptism, the ordained priesthood, honoring and obeying St Peter’s successor, mortal sin, etc.

Then in 390 or so the bible, which is a narrative of salvation history, i.e., how God has intervened in history to save mankind, was defined. The bible is a narrative of salvation history, it is NOT a catechism. That’s why the church periodically publishes catechisms, so people will know what the basic content of the gospel as preached by the apostles (of course doctrined has developed so not everything in the new catechism was preached by St. Paul, e.g. invitro fertilization, but it is follows from the basics).

Even M. Luther believed the above paragraph as he wrote two catechisms - the small and the large. So if one wants to know what the gospel is read the above three catechisms. To try to figure it out from scriptural exegesis is an exercise in futility as Jesus did not say to read the bible to get the gospel but to listen to his church, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Hey Joe, that is an excellent summary of the formation (or perhaps I should say the formalising) of doctrine.

On the question of Purgatory the Catechism says
“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).

And

“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)

So primarily it is about purification. But also it’s important to note that it is a state of being or process not a place, and also it is out of time so we can’t talk in terms of how long it takes in our sense of time.

 

[Montalban]

Well… sometimes He does.

I had an argument with my wife one day. I called her bad names.

I felt really guilty about it for I sinned against her for the things I said.

I then went to confession. My sin was forgiven.

When I got home I found my wife had left taking the children and all their stuff. I felt so hurt.

A few hours later I found them at a local motel and broke down in tears telling her I was sorry for what I said.

The pain I felt was the EFFECT of the SIN I committed even though I was forgiven.

Now Jesus paid for that sin. But I still had to suffer for it.

Ken

You make it all sound like a bank balance. Who did Jesus pay to?

 

[awalt]

Awesome Deb…

That is as clear as the day is long…now the only thing left to explain is the fact that instantly to God doesn’t account for man’s definition of “instantly”

God Bless

I would have said the cleansing happens outside of time, so the Church doesn’t comment on “how long” our cleansing takes. Could be perceive4d as instantly, could not - but since it’s outside of time we don’t know.

 

[deb1]

You make it all sound like a bank balance. Who did Jesus pay to?

It is through Jesus that we are forgiven. The poster isn’t denying that.

I don’t read the post that you quoted and see anything at all resembling a bank balance.

 

[Michael_G]

Hi All,

I’m hoping someone can help me with this question. I’ve become curious lately about Catholic doctrine–right now especially on Purgatory. I read an illustration in which the priest used the analogy of a broken pitcher of orange juice; even though he had been forgiven, the mess still needed to be cleaned up, and that’s where Purgatory came into play.

But when I read 1 John 1:9, it says that “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” Since there’s no specific time mentioned, I have to assume that God would purify me right then and there. So why would Purgatory be necessary?

Thanks,
Wondering26

Conviction of the heart, Sanctification, and Purfication is a life long process and if we be saved what is not finished in this life will be finished in the next life hence the doctrine of Sanctification- and purification/purgatory

 

[Church_Militant]

Have a look at this thread.