Purgatory

[minkymurph]

I don’t know if anyone can answer me as maybe I should not ask but leave things in God’s hands. I was brought up a JW and I became a Catholic three years ago. I have problems praying for some of my family. I sounds awful and it’s only a feeling but, I believe my father may be lost from God, should I pray for him? My brother may be lost too. My grandmother was brought up protestant but became JW. She adored her own mother and lived to see her in heaven until the JW’s came along and ‘convinced’ her she would see her mother on earth. All she wanted was her mother and became a JW but wasn’t as indoctrinated as some. I believe she is somehow with God waiting. I believe my mother is not lost but not at peace and I believe I may be able to help her in some way, to bring her peace. She was a lovely person and a very innocent person but so indoctrinated. Do I pray or not and what do I pray?

 

[Liberian]

Minky Murph,

When in doubt–and there is pretty much always some doubt–go ahead and pray for them. While we should not presume on God’s mercy, we shouldn’t despair of it either.

Pardon my asking, but are your father and brother dead? If they aren’t, then they definitely aren’t “lost from God” in any final sense yet.

If I may add something, I don’t see anything wrong with a sincere question on any subject in Catholicism. “Maybe I should not ask” when it is a sincere request for information or understanding about God is never appropriate. The answer may come back “this is not to be revealed to you yet” (or “that is none of your business”) but I don’t think there is any sincere question that you could ask God that is in and of itself offensive.

• Liberian

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Minky Murph,

When in doubt–and there is pretty much always some doubt–go ahead and pray for them. While we should not presume on God’s mercy, we shouldn’t despair of it either.

Pardon my asking, but are your father and brother dead? If they aren’t, then they definitely aren’t “lost from God” in any final sense yet.

If I may add something, I don’t see anything wrong with a sincere question on any subject in Catholicism. “Maybe I should not ask” when it is a sincere request for information or understanding about God is never appropriate. The answer may come back “this is not to be revealed to you yet” (or “that is none of your business”) but I don’t think there is any sincere question that you could ask God that is in and of itself offensive.

• Liberian

Librerian:

Well said.

The Book of Genesis tells us that Abraham bargained with God about the fate of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, in spite of the fact that God had decided to completely destroy these cities on account of their great evil. (Genesis 18:17-33)

Later, we hear that Jacob wrestled with an angel and lived. (Genesis 32:25-33)

As I’ve said on another thread, I’ve praid for the soul of Yassir Arafat, one of history’s worst mass murderer’s, and have had the distinct feeling that his victims were praying with me.

If the victims of a mass murderer can pray for his soul, we most certainly can pray for the suls of those who’ve died trying to live the truth as best as they saw it.

One of the great saints wrote in her diary of praying for a man who was being put to death in a particularly nasty way. As she prayed, the sky opened up and the demons who were tormenting him were driven away by angels, and his swearing stopped as he cried our for God’s mercy. And, he called out for a priest for the last rites (He had refused to see a priest or attend in the months during the trial and before the execution).

And, we all know the Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Story of St. Mary Magdalene.

The Catholic Faith tells us to pray and to hope for God’s Mercy. We just don’t know what God is going to do.

Here is a prayer some of the Orthodox brothers sent me after Theresa Schindler Schiavo died.

A K A T H I S T for the R E P O S E of Those Who have FALLEN ASLEEP
users.sisqtel.net/williams/akathist-repose.html

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Liberian gave a good answer. Also, remember that the Church teaches a concept called “invincible ignorance”. The idea is that God does not hold people culpable for unbelief if they were not offered the gift of faith. If your relatives were, in God’s reading of their hearts, doing their best to please him and serve him and to love others as he commanded them, God accepts that sacrifice. This is why the Church teaches, for instance, that Muslims or Jews or Hindus who have physically had the words of the Gospel hit their ears are not necessarily condemned for not converting.

God knows what we are capable of. You are capable of praying for your relatives in compassion and hope. By all means, do that! Such prayers are never wasted.

 

[minkymurph]

In response to Liberian, yes my father and brother are dead. My father was a violent and vindictive alcoholic. He never wanted to change no matter how much help he was given. He had no compassion for others. Of course I don’t know how much of his beheavoir can be contributed to his alcoholism but, I know this sounds a terrible thing to say about your own father but I believe the man was incapable of love. My brother was the man my father made him and to me is somehow less responsible. I feel I should pray in hope anyway but I have been known to ‘leave him out’ in my prayers for the dead sometimes! God’s judgement is something I think is ‘none of my business’ and I should just leave it with him but I can’t help but wonder.

 

[baltobetsy]

Minkymurph, also remember that God operates outside the realm of time. I know it sounds a bit like science fiction, but the prayers you offer for your deceased loved ones now may go back and help them before or at the time of their deaths.

Betsy

 

[Andruschak]

In response to Liberian, yes my father and brother are dead. My father was a violent and vindictive alcoholic. He never wanted to change no matter how much help he was given. He had no compassion for others. Of course I don’t know how much of his beheavoir can be contributed to his alcoholism but, I know this sounds a terrible thing to say about your own father but I believe the man was incapable of love. My brother was the man my father made him and to me is somehow less responsible. I feel I should pray in hope anyway but I have been known to ‘leave him out’ in my prayers for the dead sometimes! God’s judgement is something I think is ‘none of my business’ and I should just leave it with him but I can’t help but wonder.

I have something of the same problem. My father died when i was age 19. I am now age 62. I have still been unable to shed a genuine tear for him.

But my Spiritual Director wanted me to go ahead and pray for him anyway. He was not a catholic, but at his death a Lutheran. I have paid to have a set of Gregorian Masses said for his soul, in pious hopes that if he made to Purgatory, that will release him.

 

[Zooey]

Minkymurph, also remember that God operates outside the realm of time. I know it sounds a bit like science fiction, but the prayers you offer for your deceased loved ones now may go back and help them before or at the time of their deaths.

Betsy

I have personally seen prayers answered in a way that demonstrates the truth here, that God is not confined to our concept of time.
Furthermore, no sincere prayer is ever wasted. When we pray, great good always comes of it, whether it is in the expected form or not.
God bless all here.

 

[minkymurph]

I do pray for the dead, many friends and family. Could anyone explain the concept of our prayers releasing those in purgatory? How do our prayers affect the eternal salvation of those who have died? I know God is not subject to time and the final judgement has not happened but has God not already decided in relation to those who are in purgatory? Therefore, do our prayers change his mind into releasing someone from purgatory?

 

[BLB_Oregon]

I do pray for the dead, many friends and family. Could anyone explain the concept of our prayers releasing those in purgatory? How do our prayers affect the eternal salvation of those who have died? I know God is not subject to time and the final judgement has not happened but has God not already decided in relation to those who are in purgatory? Therefore, do our prayers change his mind into releasing someone from purgatory?

Since purgatory is not an eternal fate, you might think of it as a completion of our earthly life and the process of death. It is where that which is incompatible with heaven is purged: the residual selfishness, lack of repentance, and rejecting aspects of our relationship with God. Or you could look at it as our final healing or rather as our final consent to it. I remember CS Lewis describing these as pains that would not be traded for earthly pleasures, but pains, nonetheless.

I have never found it helpful to think of purgatory as some sort of a jail. It is more like a rehab center. God isn’t going to finish with you until you’ve reached the fullness of what you are intended to be, including the fullness of your capacity to love without reservation. You and I both know that this is not generally a pleasant process, even here on earth.

This isn’t a business of “appeasing” God. It is a business of becoming who we are. That has to be our choice, and by God’s will it is an active choice and not just an intellectual assent. So you could also look as purgatory as the final activity involved in choosing the Will of God over the falsehoods that remain in our own wills in opposition to it. Obviously, this is going to be easier for us if someone is praying for us and loving us through it.

Also, I find it the most helpful to remember that those in heaven and purgatory are still the Church: whether we are finished products, or still being finished, or still fighting the good fight in the face of evil here on earth, we can still pray for each other and ask others to pray for us.

Our God is not a god of the dead, but the God of the living. That is the thing to remember. As for how time comes into it, I think it is safe to say that one who has only been in time is going to imagine what it is like to be outside it only with great difficulty. Don’t get too worried about that aspect of it.