Purgatory

[perpetualseeker]

I fear I may be in misunderstanding of the concept and principle “rules and regulations” involving purgatory. I was under the impression that is was where people go to purge their unlcean soul before they can enter heaven. I was reading another thread, however, that someone had stated that the soul in purgatory need our prayers so they might get to heaven. I have heard this before but never really understood it. Is there a chance that souls in purgatory don’t go to heaven? I was always under the impression that it was a time of suffering whereby the sins of your past were purged so that your soul will be purified in order to enter heaven.

 

[Veritas41]

I fear I may be in misunderstanding of the concept and principle “rules and regulations” involving purgatory. I was under the impression that is was where people go to purge their unlcean soul before they can enter heaven. I was reading another thread, however, that someone had stated that the soul in purgatory need our prayers so they might get to heaven. I have heard this before but never really understood it. Is there a chance that souls in purgatory don’t go to heaven? I was always under the impression that it was a time of suffering whereby the sins of your past were purged so that your soul will be purified in order to enter heaven.

No, there is no chance a soul in purgatory will not go to heaven. Purgatory is *only *for those who die in a state of grace (“saved”). Purgatory, like you said, is where souls undergo purification from sin so they can be fit to enter heaven. It’s for that reason we pray for them – just like our prayers for others on earth can aid them in sanctification, so can our prayers aid those in purgatory for their sanctification and release from purgatory.

 

[perpetualseeker]

Thank you kindly for your response, but if there is no chance they will not go to heaven than why pray for them? It seems our prayers would have better use for those who still have a chance of going to hell.

 

[Veritas41]

Thank you kindly for your response, but if there is no chance they will not go to heaven than why pray for them? It seems our prayers would have better use for those who still have a chance of going to hell.

Because they can’t pray for themselves --they depend upon our prayers (and I expect the prayers of saints in heaven). It’s not an either/or thing – we can pray for those in purgatory and pray for those who still have a chance of going to hell. The souls in purgatory are just as much part of the Body of Christ as we on earth are, and our obligation to love and help them remains – in their case, we help them through offering prayers and sacrifices on their behalf. If you were a soul in purgatory undergoing purification, wouldn’t you want someone to pray for you to help you get to heaven faster?

 

[Nanor]

What if the person you are praying for , is in hell?

We have no way of knowing the state of somebodies soul when they die, so they could be in hell, when we think they are in purgatory, so would such pray be pointless?

And also why did the thief on the cross (the believer) beside Jesus get to skip purgatory? Surely his soul was unclean? …not that I am judging him.

 

[LilyM]

What if the person you are praying for , is in hell?

We have no way of knowing the state of somebodies soul when they die, so they could be in hell, when we think they are in purgatory, so would such pray be pointless?

And also why did the thief on the cross (the believer) beside Jesus get to skip purgatory? Surely his soul was unclean? …not that I am judging him.

No prayer is unwasted - possibly if we pray for someone who is beyond our help, then our prayers are applied to someone who CAN be helped. Or else God, being outside of time, can apply them to the person during their life to gain some sort of spiritual advantage for them. St Padre Pio for one used to pray for a good and holy death for people such as his own father for years after they’d died for this second reason.

As for the good thief - well, surely Jesus being God and all could read the obviously great remorse of his soul. Not to mention that he was suffering a pretty awful punishment for his crime right there (which for all we know could have been a very minor one!).

I dare say the horrors of the thief’s crucifixion may have been enough to wipe out his temporal punishment for his sins and crimes and get him straight to heaven. Then again the good we do for others also rebounds to our own benefit as well. Perhaps the good thief was offering his sufferings in union with those of Jesus and/or FOR the innocent man (Jesus) he saw suffering next to him, earning this sort of merit for himself.

 

[perpetualseeker]

Because they can’t pray for themselves --they depend upon our prayers (and I expect the prayers of saints in heaven). It’s not an either/or thing – we can pray for those in purgatory and pray for those who still have a chance of going to hell. The souls in purgatory are just as much part of the Body of Christ as we on earth are, and our obligation to love and help them remains – in their case, we help them through offering prayers and sacrifices on their behalf. If you were a soul in purgatory undergoing purification, wouldn’t you want someone to pray for you to help you get to heaven faster?

Good point!

 

[water]

St. Faustina said that when we prayed for a specific soul, sometimes God grants your answers on other souls as well. Therefore, not a single prayer for souls will be wasted.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If someone dies immediately after Baptism they go straight to heaven without purgatory.

The good thief could have had a baptism of desire–therefore he would have gone straight to heaven!

 

[Veritas41]

What if the person you are praying for , is in hell?

We have no way of knowing the state of somebodies soul when they die, so they could be in hell, when we think they are in purgatory, so would such pray be pointless?

And also why did the thief on the cross (the believer) beside Jesus get to skip purgatory? Surely his soul was unclean? …not that I am judging him.

Who said the thief on the cross skipped purgatory? Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in “paradise” – but Jesus didn’t ascend to heaven until much later. “Paradise” was the “limbo of the fathers” (to use one term) where the righteous dead waited until Christ opened the gates of heaven. It seems possible, if not likely, that the thief and others in that state would have had to undergo purification (purgatory) in order to enter heaven.

It’s true, we don’t have absolute knowledge of whether a person is in hell or not, but why not hope for the best? I wouldn’t think any prayer is wasted–we don’t know how God works our prayers into His plan.

 

[boppaid]

Who said the thief on the cross skipped purgatory? Jesus told the thief he would be with Him in “paradise” – but Jesus didn’t ascend to heaven until much later. “Paradise” was the “limbo of the fathers” (to use one term) where the righteous dead waited until Christ opened the gates of heaven. It seems possible, if not likely, that the thief and others in that state would have had to undergo purification (purgatory) in order to enter heaven.

Well, actually Luke 23:42-43 reads:

42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

In other words, he says “ToDAY” you will be with me… I know this because this has always been a verse that was bothersome to me, with my teachings of Purgatory. I never heard the term Paradise as “limbo of the fathers” though. Where does that come from?

 

[tizzidale]

Is purgatory considered a ‘place’? Or is this just the limitations of language? I consider it a ‘state’, and as a state outside of temporal time, how can we assign to it the notion of ‘time’ at all?

 

[Will_Pick]

Thank you kindly for your response, but if there is no chance they will not go to heaven than why pray for them? It seems our prayers would have better use for those who still have a chance of going to hell.[/q uote]

Please read it again “No, there is no chance a soul in purgatory will not go to heaven.” Thank you

 

[Veritas41]

Well, actually Luke 23:42-43 reads:

In other words, he says “ToDAY” you will be with me… I know this because this has always been a verse that was bothersome to me, with my teachings of Purgatory. I never heard the term Paradise as “limbo of the fathers” though. Where does that come from?

Yes, “Today” (that day) the thief did go with Jesus to Paradise, where the souls of OT saints waited until they could go to heaven. We know that Jesus didn’t go directly to heaven after His Resurrection from other passages:

John 20:17, “Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father”

1 Peter 3:18-20, “For Christ died for sins once fo rall, the righteous for the unrighteous, the bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”

Ephesians 4:8-10, “This is why it says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.’ What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe”

 

[Veritas41]

Yes, “Today” (that day) the thief did go with Jesus to Paradise, where the souls of OT saints waited until they could go to heaven. We know that Jesus didn’t go directly to heaven after His Resurrection from other passages:

John 20:17, “Jesus said, 'Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father”

1 Peter 3:18-20, “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”

Ephesians 4:8-10, “This is why it says: ‘When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.’ What does ‘he ascended’ mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe”

I’m not sure where the term 'limbo of the fathers" originated. I have just heard it from various sources. I’m not sure if it’s an official term used by the Church or not, but the Jews believed in the existence of *sheol *where the souls of the dead went, and the Greek word used in the NT is *Hades. *It isn’t heaven or hell, just an abode of the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[Veritas41]

Is purgatory considered a ‘place’? Or is this just the limitations of language? I consider it a ‘state’, and as a state outside of temporal time, how can we assign to it the notion of ‘time’ at all?

That’s probably more the limitations of language. Probably state of being would be more accurate, and yes we can’t really assign the notion of time to it since it exists outside of time, but we do know that our prayers on behalf of those in purgatory are beneficial

 

[Nanor]

A point for discussion…
Would it really be possible for a third party to be privvy to the conversation DETAILS of a conversation between two people being tortured to death? None of the evangelists were around on Good Friday, so in effect it is actually 4th hand information, that is being discussed here.

Can we really know the inner details of what was said at all?

Discuss…

 

[boppaid]

A point for discussion…
Would it really be possible for a third party to be privvy to the conversation DETAILS of a conversation between two people being tortured to death? None of the evangelists were around on Good Friday, so in effect it is actually 4th hand information, that is being discussed here.

Can we really know the inner details of what was said at all?

Discuss…

Good question. Although to be honest, I believe all scripture is inspired by God, so that’s how we know all the info included is accurate.

 

[dafalax]

All we know for sure about purgatory is that it is a state of purification we undergo before going into heaven and that our prayers can help people get purified faster. This state is very painful and so it is a great act of mercy to help them.
You ask, “Why not pray for those who might go to hell instead?” Do you pray for little babies in Africa born with AIDS? Do you pray for little children who will die of cancer before reaching the age of reason? Why would you bother praying for them since they won’t ever be able to commit a sin willfully? Surely they’re going to heaven, so why bother? We bother because it is a loving act of mercy, and as horrible as it is to watch a 4 year old die of cancer, the holy souls of purgatory suffer much more.
Personally i am consecrated to Our Lady so that she can do with my prayers and good works as will most please Our Lord. But i do occasionally ask her to apply a penance here or there to my friends and family in purgatory if it would please the Lord.
Also, i am assuming that Mary and St. John were able to fill the evangelists in on what Jesus said on the cross. Jesus also came back from the dead, so maybe while establishing the Church, He told the evangelists what happened during His passion. He did love to tell stories, that one. You know, the evangelists weren’t there when Jesus was born, or when the angel announced His coming to Mary, or at the Purification in the temple. How do we know any of this is true? Faith, baby. If you start questioning some, you have to question it all. I mean, what do we really know about this Jeremiah fellow anyway? Or Joel? Or Daniel? I knew a Daniel once. Sketchy guy . . .