Purgatory

[srferdave]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?

 

[JustinApologist]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?

Someone posted this in Philippians 2:9-10

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,** in heaven and on earth**, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.

Here Paul mention three places where Jesus is worshipped.

In heaven (those saints in heaven), on earth (us), and under the earth (purgatory). There is no worship of God in hell because there is no God there. There is only one place this third place could be. It’s Purgatory.

This might help also scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[srferdave]

Thank you. In addition, where does it talk about what this third place (purgatory) is like?

 

[JustinApologist]

Thank you. In addition, where does it talk about what this third place (purgatory) is like?

Purgatory is no where mentioned in the Bible. However, just because it is not mention there it doesn’t exist. If you open the CatholicScripture.com.

The link I gave provide other verses in the Bible that show there is Purgatory.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html Please look at the link.

 

[John_Hiner]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

This is Purgatory:

The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor. For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:8-15 (NAB).

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[John_Hiner]

There is no worship of God in hell because there is no God there.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I agree that there is no worship of God in hell. However, it may be an overstatement to assert that “there is no God there.” Consider this Psalm:

Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.
Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach to it.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea:
Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.
And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures.
But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.
Psalm 138(139):5-12 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

Is there some reason to assert that God is not in hell? Would it be more appropriate to say that those who are in hell are cut off from God, even though He is present everywhere?

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

 

[JustinApologist]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I agree that there is no worship of God in hell. However, it may be an overstatement to assert that “there is no God there.” Consider this Psalm:

Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.
Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach to it.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea:
Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.
And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures.
But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.
Psalm 138(139):5-12 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

Is there some reason to assert that God is not in hell? Would it be more appropriate to say that those who are in hell are cut off from God, even though He is present everywhere?

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

I do think God is aware what is going on in hell, but His Presence is not in hell.

The point of hell was it is a totally separation from God himself for all eternity.

 

[Pax]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

I agree that there is no worship of God in hell. However, it may be an overstatement to assert that “there is no God there.” Consider this Psalm:

Behold, O Lord, thou hast known all things, the last and those of old: thou hast formed me, and hast laid thy hand upon me.
Thy knowledge is become wonderful to me: it is high, and I cannot reach to it.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy face?
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.
If I take my wings early in the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea:
Even there also shall thy hand lead me: and thy right hand shall hold me.
And I said: Perhaps darkness shall cover me: and night shall be my light in my pleasures.
But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.
Psalm 138(139):5-12 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition.)

Is there some reason to assert that God is not in hell? Would it be more appropriate to say that those who are in hell are cut off from God, even though He is present everywhere?

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner

Hell in this quotation and any other from the OT is a reference to Sheol. Sheol is the place of the dead and included those that would eventually reach heaven after Jesus resurrection as well as those that were destined for eternal damnation. The just were at peace in Sheol while those that were damned were already suffering in torment.

Hell in modern usage pertains to the place of eternal punishment, but it did not always carry that meaning.

 

[John_Hiner]

Hell in this quotation and any other from the OT is a reference to Sheol. Sheol is the place of the dead and included those that would eventually reach heaven after Jesus resurrection as well as those that were destined for eternal damnation. The just were at peace in Sheol while those that were damned were already suffering in torment.

Hell in modern usage pertains to the place of eternal punishment, but it did not always carry that meaning.

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Pax:

I understand the distinction that you are making. I also appreciate the change which occurred when the Gates of Heaven were opened. However, what is the basis for saying that God is not present in the hell of eternal torment? Is there a Scriptural or Ecclesiastical reference which obliges one to speak in this way?

I can understand the truth of the limitation on the damned, who are cut off from God. However, I do not see the reason for a reciprocal “limitation” on the presence of God.

Two particular arguments occur to me just now that seem to urge me not to adopt this way of talking:

First, God makes a decision to create each and every person. By infallible foresight, God knows who will be damned. Yet, He decides to create each actual person, even those who will be damned. Therefore, He must value and love these persons – if not He would simply not create them in the first place. In this light, it seems to me that even though the damned have rejected God, and cannot recover from that decision, God still values and loves them. The proof of this is that they ever lived at all.

Second, God maintains all things that exist in being. Hence, even the damned, since they do not cease to exist when they enter the hell of torment, are sustained immediately in existence by God. This seems like a strong argument for saying He is “present” with them, even if they are unable to know His presence.

What do you think?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

 

[FCEGM]

I do think God is aware what is going on in hell, but His Presence is not in hell.

The point of hell was it is a totally separation from God himself for all eternity.

How can His Presence be separate from His knowledge (awareness)?

Those in Hell have freely chosen to separate themselves from God; He is present to them, however, for His love for all He has created never changes. The separation the damned have chosen is from their side and thus His love of them can only be experienced as eternal fire and torment. There is nothing in them that corresponds to His love. Consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one must himself (by correspondence to His grace) become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do.

“I say,” writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, “that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love… It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it,” (Homily 84).

 

[FCEGM]

Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear Pax:

I understand the distinction that you are making. I also appreciate the change which occurred when the Gates of Heaven were opened. However, what is the basis for saying that God is not present in the hell of eternal torment? Is there a Scriptural or Ecclesiastical reference which obliges one to speak in this way?

I can understand the truth of the limitation on the damned, who are cut off from God. However, I do not see the reason for a reciprocal “limitation” on the presence of God.

Two particular arguments occur to me just now that seem to urge me not to adopt this way of talking:

First, God makes a decision to create each and every person. By infallible foresight, God knows who will be damned. Yet, He decides to create each actual person, even those who will be damned. Therefore, He must value and love these persons – if not He would simply not create them in the first place. In this light, it seems to me that even though the damned have rejected God, and cannot recover from that decision, God still values and loves them. The proof of this is that they ever lived at all.

Second, God maintains all things that exist in being. Hence, even the damned, since they do not cease to exist when they enter the hell of torment, are sustained immediately in existence by God. This seems like a strong argument for saying He is “present” with them, even if they are unable to know His presence.

What do you think?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner

Yes, they are unable to know His presence as love.

 

[Pax]

I don’t believe that there is any logical reason why we must assume that God is somehow present in hell in order to sustain the existence of those that dwell there.

We are unable by way of our natural limitations to know and understand the mind and power of the Almighty. It is quite possible that God created angels and human souls with a certain finality associated with immortality. It is logically possible to understand immortality as an irrevocable gift. The gift itself contains the necessary power to sustain the soul without the continued immediate presence of the Giver.

This is merely a speculation, and it may be that your view is the correct one. God is certainly aware of what is going on in hell. It may be that part of the pains of hell include the eternal fleeing from God by those that have freely chosen to separate themselves from Him. Moreover, this may be even more frustrating for them because they may indeed be aware of God’s sustaining power of immortality whether it is immediate or irrevocably given as a gift with no further immediate contact.

No one really knows of these things because they have not been revealed to us. What has been revealed is only a dimly lit vision of how painful and dreadful an existence awaits those that will go there.

 

[Church_Militant]

There’s plenty of info on Purgatory on this thread.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

 

[JustinApologist]

How can His Presence be separate from His knowledge (awareness)?

Those in Hell have freely chosen to separate themselves from God; He is present to them, however, for His love for all He has created never changes. The separation the damned have chosen is from their side and thus His love of them can only be experienced as eternal fire and torment. There is nothing in them that corresponds to His love. Consider Scripture’s words that “our God is a consuming fire” - in order to survive in and find joy and salvation in that fire one must himself (by correspondence to His grace) become one with the fire of Divine Love - this the damned cannot do.

“I say,” writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, “that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love… It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it,” (Homily 84).

This is getting off the topic before it derails I am opening a new thread about God and hell.

Like I pointed out before, Purgatory is mention in the Link I provided, Philippians included.

 

[Lev23]

There’s plenty of info on Purgatory on this thread.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

I assume when you mention “Jewish Traditional Beliefs” you mean the orthodox.

The are Karaite Jews, those that hold to the tradition of observing the Torah only(as well as the prophets, historical writings) and not the sacred "oral’ Torah the Orthodox claim was given to Moses on Mt.Sinai. Karaites do not observe or hold to the teachings of the Talmud.

Karaite Jews do not believe in a “good vs. bad” works of measurement after one dies and/or the purgatory concept.

 

[volzcpa]

Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?

Rev: 13-15 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If Hades is to be thrown into the lake of fire, then it can be deduced that Hades refers to what we call Purgatory.