Purgatory?

  • Thread starter Thread starter NewPerspective
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

NewPerspective

Guest
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…What is the origin of that by the way? I was curious. And one thread spoke of the Holy Souls of Purgatory and the intercession they provide us with. Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
 
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…
The Pope cannot just “retire” a doctrine of the faith taught since the beginnings of the Church. He just doesn’t have the authority to do any of the kind. (And I don’t know of anybody who has such authority.)
Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
Well, a truly Bible-believing and Spirit-filled believer would already believe it. 👍
But here’s a link you can take a look at to begin with: catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
 
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…What is the origin of that by the way? I was curious. And one thread spoke of the Holy Souls of Purgatory and the intercession they provide us with. Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
You may be confused over the story from a few months back about Limbo. This is a theological idea about where unbaptized babies go that has a lot of sway in the Catholic Church. For may years it was considered a likely theory, although now, the church’s official position is simply that it does not know WHAT happens to unbaptized babies, and that it hopes that there may be some possibility for their salvation unknown to the church.

It’s important to note that Limbo was NEVER a doctrine, but simply theological speculation. It should also be stated that the concept of Limbo is still a perfectly legitimate theory to believe in, but is not taught as the SOLE possibility anymore.
 
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…What is the origin of that by the way? I was curious. And one thread spoke of the Holy Souls of Purgatory and the intercession they provide us with. Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
A possible general direction of conversation with that believer might be a series of questions.

At this very moment, are you perfect? (expected answer is no)
Is there any imperfection in heaven? (expected answer is no)
If you died at this very moment, by what process do you go from being imperfect now to being in heaven with no imperfections?
Catholics call this process purgation, which is done in purgatory.

There is scripture to take someone step by step through this, but this is the general idea.

michel
 
A possible general direction of conversation with that believer might be a series of questions.

At this very moment, are you perfect? (expected answer is no)
Is there any imperfection in heaven? (expected answer is no)
If you died at this very moment, by what process do you go from being imperfect now to being in heaven with no imperfections?
Catholics call this process purgation, which is done in purgatory.

There is scripture to take someone step by step through this, but this is the general idea.

michel
Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?

Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them
 
Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?
Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them
The answer is: ALL to both questions. But that doesn’t have much to do with purgatory. Yes, He took away ALL our sins, when we were baptized. But we know, that we continue sinning, and we know that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven”. We also know that God does not look at us as if we were “whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean”. But thanks be to God for providing purgatory for us, so that we could be “perfect as He is perfect” and enter the Kingdom of God!
 
Purgatory makes no sense when you have an evangelical protestant perspective of man, sin, free will, salvation and heaven. When you perceive Jesus’ passion as a legal maneuver by which the Divine penal system is satisfied, the sinner ‘covered’ by the righteousness of Christ and doors of heaven opened, purgatory makes no sense.

But such a system begs some hard questions. If I am a christian, but since my conversion still commit the occasional sin, how can heaven still be heaven when I am present? I still hurt people from time to time. There will be no hurt in heaven: how can I be allowed to be there? Some protestants believe that God will surgically remove this remaining inclination towards sin, but what about free will? Will it be done via Divine wave of the hand or will we be required to cooperate in our will? Catholics take the latter approach and call it Purgatory.

Remember, Purgatory is NOT about punishment in the punitive legalistic sense. It is about a Fatherly disciplining of His children so that we are purged of the stuff that would otherwise ruin heaven!

As for saints, surely you don’t think all the dead believers that have gone before us are sitting on their duffs eating heavenly Bon-Bons and playing the harp? Scripture clearly exhorts believers to pray for one another and ALSO clearly states that believers will enjoy eternal life. Why would you think the saints in heaven less capable of performing duties commanded of saints on earth?
 
Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?

Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them
I guess this leads me to wonder how to interpret scripture.

Hebrews 12:23 mentions “and the spirits of the just made perfect”.
Please read the chapter and help me to understand how, if you are just (justified) why are you not already perfect so that you must be *made *perfect.

By what process is someone that is already just made perfect?

michel
 
Purgatory makes no sense when you have an evangelical protestant perspective of man, sin, free will, salvation and heaven. When you perceive Jesus’ passion as a legal maneuver by which the Divine penal system is satisfied, the sinner ‘covered’ by the righteousness of Christ and doors of heaven opened, purgatory makes no sense.

But such a system begs some hard questions. If I am a christian, but since my conversion still commit the occasional sin, how can heaven still be heaven when I am present? I still hurt people from time to time. There will be no hurt in heaven: how can I be allowed to be there? Some protestants believe that God will surgically remove this remaining inclination towards sin, but what about free will? Will it be done via Divine wave of the hand or will we be required to cooperate in our will? Catholics take the latter approach and call it Purgatory.

Remember, Purgatory is NOT about punishment in the punitive legalistic sense. It is about a Fatherly disciplining of His children so that we are purged of the stuff that would otherwise ruin heaven!

As for saints, surely you don’t think all the dead believers that have gone before us are sitting on their duffs eating heavenly Bon-Bons and playing the harp? Scripture clearly exhorts believers to pray for one another and ALSO clearly states that believers will enjoy eternal life. Why would you think the saints in heaven less capable of performing duties commanded of saints on earth?
I think you’ve put your finger on the real problem here. The OP doesn’t understand Purgatory, because of a whole other understanding of both what Purgatory means, and also, has a penal satisfaction theology making that understanding all the more difficult.
 
Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?

Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them
If you are in purgatory, then you are already GUARANTEED entrance into heaven. You’ve already been judged. Jesus has died for your sins. His sacrifice is perfect. But we are not. Purgatory is like the place you shower off the dirt and get dressed real nice before you enter the banquet hall. The dirtier you are - the longer the shower. Bad analogy, I know. But you must be clean and perfect to enter heaven! 🙂

God Bless
sneakers
 
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…What is the origin of that by the way? I was curious. And one thread spoke of the Holy Souls of Purgatory and the intercession they provide us with. Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
You are a Bible-believer, I’m a God-believer.
Read the Diary of St. Faustina, Jesus showed her the purgatory.
 
You are a Bible-believer, I’m a God-believer.
Read the Diary of St. Faustina, Jesus showed her the purgatory.
Protestants don’t buy into private revelation. They are interested in Scripture. You want to show them Purgatory give the Scriptural basis for this belief to present your case.
 
the church’s official position is simply that it does not know WHAT happens to unbaptized babies, and that it hopes that there may be some possibility for their salvation unknown to the church.
how can an organization which claims to be the voice of god on earth, not know what happens to unbaptized babies who die? and the 2000 year old speculation about limbo. i’m all the more convinced that catholicism is pure human imagination, or lack thereof. 😃
 
how can an organization which claims to be the voice of god on earth, not know what happens to unbaptized babies who die? and the 2000 year old speculation about limbo. i’m all the more convinced that catholicism is pure human imagination, or lack thereof. 😃
The Catholic Church** teaches that unbaptized babies is left to the mercy of God**. Only He (God) see can do this. The Catholic Church purpose is to assist those who are still alive and can be baptized to be save through outward signs like the 7 Sacraments.

Limbo was only a theological theory by theologians It was** believed but the CC has never defined it dogmatically**. Some of the laity believed it, I never believe in it. It was never taught. I have heard theologians theorized of its existence.
 
Protestants don’t buy into private revelation.
True and false.
It is true, because Protestants will reject any private revelation by Catholics (citing them to be not Scriptural).
It is false, because Protestants themselves actually totally depend on private revelations, namely, that the Holy Spirit has reveled to them individually all necessary Christian truths (they cite it themselves).
 
Did Jesus blood wash away all my sins or just some of them?

Did Jesus die to pay the penalty for just some of my sins or for all of them
As someone else answered you, the answer is all…IF you follow Him, no? After all, some people go to hell because they do not accept Christ, no?
 
how can an organization which claims to be the voice of god on earth, not know what happens to unbaptized babies who die? and the 2000 year old speculation about limbo. i’m all the more convinced that catholicism is pure human imagination, or lack thereof. 😃
Easy. She has NEVER claimed direct access to the omniscience of God. Quite the opposite. Infallibility is a negative protection. If I were infallible in math, I could still quite easily flunk math. I would just be unable to write down any answers on the test if I couldn’t do them. Neither Pope, nor council, nor catechism claims to have all the answers, just the fullness of what HAS been revealed to us. Your objection implies the expectation that God should be entirely understandable to your intellect. What a puny God THAT would be. The mysteries inherent to catholicism are evidence that it is NOT man-made. If it WERE man-made, it would be a much tidier package, no?
 
Question: Is Purgatory made up of a temporary fire or an eternal fire in which souls remain only temporarily?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top