Purgatory?

[Metaron]

Regardless, it is a false teaching. It cannot be proven in Scripture and did not exist before the 5th Century. Deny it all you want but prove it. Show me where Christ taught it in his preachings. Where does Paul teach it? Truth: Christ didn’t preach it or teach it, Paul didn’t preach it or teach it. It doesn’t exist. It was invented to become the biggest money making fear scam in the history of the Catholic church primariliy for the building of St. Peter’s.

The Bible doesn’t mention embryonic stem-cell research, gay marriage, contraception, life beginning at conception, etc., etc., so how do you decide these issues without an infallible source? So, you’re becoming a Sola Scripturist, eh? You’re in for a rude awakening… why did you abandon your faith…? I’ll still pray for you Allsaints…

 

[Mannyfit75]

The whole premise of Purgatory denies Jesus Christ of the full credit that he paid for our sins in full on the cross. He paid it all and that my friend is Scripture.

Here is your answer. An article I pulled from a website:

Is Christ’s death sufficient? Of course it is! It is sufficient to win our redemption and to allow the Holy Spirit to sanctify us. The work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, however, is the work of purification and sanctification. It is the application of the divine life won by Christ. Purgatory in no way should be viewed as a “second chance,” by which those who did not believe in and follow Christ can somehow “suffer their way into heaven,” despite their rejection of the Christian life. Jesus is clear that those who refuse to follow Him are guilty: “[H]e who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (Jn. 3:18). Spiritual purification is possible only for those who have been reconciled to God in this life (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-20).

The concept of purification after death dates back to the Jews of pre-Christian times. Evidence of this can be seen in the Second Book of Maccabees. Catholics will quickly cite this as scriptural evidence for the reality of purgatory, but we must remember that Protestants do not accept 2 Maccabees as scriptural.

Nevertheless, objective readers will have to note that, even if the seven books of the Old Testament accepted by Catholics and rejected by Protestants are not biblical, they are godly writings and worthy of our consideration. In 2 Maccabees, following a battle, the faithful Jews found out that their fallen comrades each carried with them sacred tokens of idols, which the law forbade the Jews to wear:

They turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering (2 Mac. 12:42-43).

 

[Metaron]

Regardless, it is a false teaching. It cannot be proven in Scripture and did not exist before the 5th Century. Deny it all you want but prove it. Show me where Christ taught it in his preachings. Where does Paul teach it? Truth: Christ didn’t preach it or teach it, Paul didn’t preach it or teach it. It doesn’t exist. It was invented to become the biggest money making fear scam in the history of the Catholic church primariliy for the building of St. Peter’s.

I showed you that it was popularly believed long before the 5th century with quotations and dates…! You’re being unreasonable. You just have it out for the Catholic Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am one Catholic that will never buy into the biggest money making scam ever devised by the church.

A Catholic with a Sola Scripturist point of view I say.

That is the biggest myth you have fallen into. Let just say that paying the church money of 5 dollars a week does not save a get uncle Sam in purgatory out of there. It’s through prayers offered in behalf of the dead. I believe the Mass brings many relief of the souls of purgatory out of hell.

I can’t believe you buy into the idea that it is biggest money making scam. That is a lie. Catholic Answers has a tract on this and I’ll quote one:

One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up. When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.

I suggest AllSaint, that you read this Article:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp and this article which I got my information from.

Since you claim to be Catholic, you don’t seem to be like one. I think you are lying to yourself every Sunday when you go to Mass. You do of course recite the Nicene Creed. There is a line in there that states: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

Since you do not believe in **purgatory then you lied **to yourself, and to God by making a false profession of faith. You can’t turn the truth into a lie and a lie into a truth. Let you no mean no and your yes mean yes. Every else is from the evil one.

 

[AllSaints1631]

A Catholic with a Sola Scripturist point of view I say.

That is the biggest myth you have fallen into. Let just say that paying the church money of 5 dollars a week does not save a get uncle Sam in purgatory out of there. It’s through prayers offered in behalf of the dead. I believe the Mass brings many relief of the souls of purgatory out of hell.

I can’t believe you buy into the idea that it is biggest money making scam. That is a lie. Catholic Answers has a tract on this and I’ll quote one:

I suggest AllSaint, that you read this Article:

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp and this article which I got my information from.

Since you claim to be Catholic, you don’t seem to be like one. I think you are lying to yourself every Sunday when you go to Mass. You do of course recite the Nicene Creed. There is a line in there that states: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

Since you do not believe in **purgatory then you lied **to yourself, and to God by making a false profession of faith. You can’t turn the truth into a lie and a lie into a truth. Let you no mean no and your yes mean yes. Every else is from the evil one.

Paying money for masses said and prayers said to shorten a someone’s stay in Purgatory is ridiculous and totally not in Scripture. Show me where this is a sound Christian belief. I think you will also have to admit that Purgatory truthfully has come from the Magisterium and not Scripture. You can’t turn the truth into a lie and a lie into the truth.

 

[Metaron]

I think Allsaints is CINO, or just plain gone MIA from the Catholic Church, sadly.

 

[AllSaints1631]

I think Allsaints is CINO, or just plain gone MIA from the Catholic Church, sadly.

Just seriously questioning why the church would still uphold teachings like this that are clearly not Scriptural. Honestly speaking, any Catholic would have to admit that Purgatory is a Magisterial teaching as opposed to Scriptural.

 

[Metaron]

Just seriously questioning why the church would still uphold teachings like this that are clearly not Scriptural. Honestly speaking, any Catholic would have to admit that Purgatory is a Magisterial teaching as opposed to Scriptural.

Traditional, Magisterial, and from the Church Fathers, as well as quasi-scriptural. Are you still Catholic?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Paying money for masses said and prayers said to shorten a someone’s stay in Purgatory is ridiculous and totally not in Scripture. Show me where this is a sound Christian belief. I think you will also have to admit that Purgatory truthfully has come from the Magisterium and not Scripture. You can’t turn the truth into a lie and a lie into the truth.

Oh please. I already told you. Read Phil. 2:10, 2 Macc. 12:43-45, 1 Peter 1:6-7. I already give your Scriptural Bases for Purgatory but all you said was that I took out of context. You just refuse to believe.

Man can twist the truth and turn the truth into a lie. That is why St. Paul, don’t teach any strange doctrine.

The offering is a donation and is not required for the faithful to donate money to the Church if they cannot afford it. No one is force upon it. In some parishes like those in military camp, there is no money being offered.

I also like to add that the Jews also pray for the Dead. It’s called the Mourner Kaddish.

Wikipedia states:

Prayer for the dead appears in the Pharisaic[1] book 2 Maccabees.[2] Judas Maccabeus offers a sacrifice as a propitiatory sin-offering and a memorial thank-offering. These prayers and sacrifices were intended to improve the standing of the dead during the resurrection. Jews do not regard 2 Maccabees as canonical, perhaps because of its theological innovations.[1]

Within Judaism, prayers for the dead form part of the Jewish services. The prayers offered on behalf of the deceased consist of: Recitation of Psalms; Reciting a thrice daily communal prayer in Aramaic known as “Kaddish” which actually means “Sanctification” (or “[Prayer of] Making Holy”) which is a prayer “In Praise of God”; or other special remembrances known as Yizkor; and also a Hazkara said either on the annual commemoration known as the Yahrzeit as well on Jewish holidays.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_for_the_dead

Praying for the dead not new.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just seriously questioning why the church would still uphold teachings like this that are clearly not Scriptural. Honestly speaking, any Catholic would have to admit that Purgatory is a Magisterial teaching as opposed to Scriptural.

Let take this the way the Bible has it. We are disputing about the Purgatory right. Let see what does Jesus say about disputes or sin.

And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Matthew 18:17.

Well, the Magisterium is the Church. She declares the Purgatory does exist. Therefore we fullfill Matt 18:17. Woah, now we see the Church has authority. AllSaints… I doubt you are really Catholic. Maybe you are Pseudo Catholic, or Protestant pretending to be Catholic.

 

[paarsurrey]

catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Hi

I accessed the above website and I came across the following quote from NTBible:

Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27).

It gives me a thought that as my Catholic friends believe Lazarus was raised from the (literally, medically and physically) dead. If man is to die once then Lazarus must to still alive or we have to believe that he was cured from near-dead ( that would also be miraculous) and hence died in due course of time, a natural death.

I think my friends agree with me.

Thanks

 

[peary]

Yeah, I totally agree. I don’t know why, but Allsaints is hell-bent on persuing their vendetta against the Catholic Church, just like JimR in the other thread, The End of the 60’s is Near.

**Best way to deal with AllSaints is to either put him on ignore or just do not respond. I find that works. **

 

[Metaron]

**Best way to deal with AllSaints is to either put him on ignore or just do not respond. I find that works. **

But I want them to come back to the Catholic Church of God too, . I’m just now joining the Catholic Church after finding Protestantism contains no Absolute Truth… just every man’s interpretation for himself.

 

[steve_b]

The whole premise of Purgatory denies Jesus Christ of the full credit that he paid for our sins in full on the cross.

I think you missed this post.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3020816&postcount=120
AllSaints:

He paid it all and that my friend is Scripture.

You believe then that all will go to heaven?
AllSaints:

I am one Catholic that will never buy into the biggest money making scam ever devised by the church.

Your bio doesn’t identify any religion. You don’t come accross as Catholic.

 

[steve_b]

Deny it all you want but prove it. Show me where Christ taught it in his preachings. Where does Paul teach it? Truth: Christ didn’t preach it or teach it, Paul didn’t preach it or teach it. It doesn’t exist. It was invented to become the biggest money making fear scam in the history of the Catholic church primariliy for the building of St. Peter’s.

You’ve been given scriptural quotes. You are ignoring them as if they didn’t exist. Deal with the quotes.

 

[peary]

Hi

I accessed the above website and I came across the following quote from NTBible:

Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27).

It gives me a thought that as my Catholic friends believe Lazarus was raised from the (literally, medically and physically) dead. If man is to die once then Lazarus must to still alive or we have to believe that he was cured from near-dead ( that would also be miraculous) and hence died in due course of time, a natural death.

I think my friends agree with me.

Thanks

Lazarus was raised from the dead - that means that he was recussitated to life. This reveals to us that Jesus was indeed God becaused even He had power over life and death.

 

[AllSaints1631]

You’ve been given scriptural quotes. You are ignoring them as if they didn’t exist. Deal with the quotes.

The quotes must be twisted to get Purgatory from them. Did Jesus ever preach of Purgatory? When Paul spoke just before his death, did he mention Purgatory?

 

[paarsurrey]

Lazarus was raised from the dead - that means that he was recussitated to life. This reveals to us that Jesus was indeed God becaused even He had power over life and death.

Hi

I don’t think so .

Elijah is also supposed to be raising people from dead ( I believe he also did raise from the near-dead). Do you consider Elijah as God? I don’t think so, it would be a superstition.

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I don’t think so .

Elijah is also supposed to be raising people from dead ( I believe he also did raise from the near-dead). Do you consider Elijah as God? I don’t think so, it would be a superstition.

Thanks

Jesus raised people from the dead of His own power:

Matt 9:24 He said: Give place, for the girl is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25 And when the multitude was put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand. And the maid arose.

Mark 7:39 And going in, he saith to them: Why make you this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. 40 And they laughed him to scorn. But he having put them all out, taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying. 41 And taking the damsel by the hand, he saith to her: Talitha cumi, which is, being interpreted: Damsel (I say to thee) arise. 42 And immediately the damsel rose up, and walked: and she was twelve years old: and they were astonished with a great astonishment.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey
Hi

I don’t think so .

Elijah is also supposed to be raising people from dead ( I believe he also did raise from the near-dead). Do you consider Elijah as God? I don’t think so, it would be a superstition.

Thanks

**According to Christian understanding from both the Church and its Scriptures, Christ allowed his death, but by His own power he resurrected and later ascended into the Beatific Vision of God. Only Christ had authority to do this, and both the Church and its Scriptures are clear on that point.