Purgatory?

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The quotes must be twisted to get Purgatory from them.
Twisted? Then YOU tell me what YOU think they mean. What you’re doing here is tantamount to ignoring the questions asked, about the scripture text given.
AllSaints:
Did Jesus ever preach of Purgatory? When Paul spoke just before his death, did he mention Purgatory?
    • Between Jesus death and resurrection, who did Jesus go to preach to? Keep in mind, the story of Abraham’s bosom, where Lazaras was. This was NOT prison. The rich man in the story was in a place of torment permanently seperate from Abraham and Lazaras. So who did Jesus go to preach to AFTER His death? Who told the rich man Lazaras story? And who told us about Jesus going to preach to the souls in prison after the crucifixion
    • before Paul’s death, when and where is Paul describing the following event, and who will experience it? [1 Cor 3:] 13 ***"******his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." ***
      Remember, I’m asking you for
    • When will this happen
    • Where will this happen
    • Who will experience it
    • Does Paul give a pass to anyone
    • As an aside, do you get the impression this purification process is a particularly pleasant experience
    • which passages in the previous passages sound to you like they are transitory and which ones are permanent
 
Twisted? Then YOU tell me what YOU think they mean. What you’re doing here is tantamount to ignoring the questions asked, about the scripture text given.

    • Between Jesus death and resurrection, who did Jesus go to preach to? Keep in mind, the story of Abraham’s bosom, where Lazaras was. This was NOT prison. The rich man in the story was in a place of torment permanently seperate from Abraham and Lazaras. So who did Jesus go to preach to AFTER His death? Who told the rich man Lazaras story? And who told us about Jesus going to preach to the souls in prison after the crucifixion
    • before Paul’s death, when and where is Paul describing the following event, and who will experience it? [1 Cor 3:] 13 ***"******his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." ***
      Remember, I’m asking you for
    • When will this happen
    • Where will this happen
    • Who will experience it
    • Does Paul give a pass to anyone
    • As an aside, do you get the impression this purification process is a particularly pleasant experience
    • which passages in the previous passages sound to you like they are transitory and which ones are permanent

  1. As the Apostles Creed states, Jesus decended to hell. Is it not possible that he went to tell the the souls in hell that they are permanently sealed off from God?
 
As the Apostles Creed states, Jesus decended to hell. Is it not possible that he went to tell the the souls in hell that they are permanently sealed off from God?
**AllSaints needs to do some research on his own. These banterings are getting, well…:sleep: **
 
As the Apostles Creed states, Jesus decended to hell. Is it not possible that he went to tell the the souls in hell that they are permanently sealed off from God?
What about the fact that the graves opened, and saints came back to life?
 
That is your proof of Purgatory??
Of course not! You just said that Jesus went to the place of souls who were permanently in Hell! We were talking about the Limbo of the Fathers.

(Orthodoxy believes in an intermediate state similar to Purgatory too, by the way.)
 
Can you show it to me? I mean seriously, let’s cut to the chase with it. Pulling this verse out with that passage to try and glue together an argument doesn’t cut. I think at the end of the day, you would have to admit that Purgatory ultimately comes via the Magisterium not from Holy Scripture. Even Fr. Pacwa agreed that this is true.
No, no. Fr. Pacwa does NOT say that purgatory is from the Magisterium to the exclusion of scripture. I have listened to him many times and that’s not true.
What you perhaps have mistaken is that the word “purgatory” is a word that conveys a truthful theological concept, just like the word “Trinity” is a word that conveys the triuninty and same substance in nature (homoousius) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirity; that word was created in 325 AD at the council of Nicea, yet the coosubstance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has always been true and yet was revealed in the New covenant, yet was still a theological truth without a specific name prior to the council of Nicea (a council of Catholic Bishops I might add).

Purgatory in the Bible is found a number of places like:

1 Cor 3:13-15
"If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,

Here Paul is using an analogy in human terms, gold, silver and precious stones are those “good works” (Mt 25:34-40) which do not burn very easily and are NOT burned up on judgment day, because they are works done with God’s grace and for His glory. In other words they are truly God’s works in us. St. Augustine said when God crowns our [good] works He is simply crowning His works in us.

And Paul is using wood, straw and hay which in human terms burn up easily as do those personal works done for one’s own glory and NOT for God’s glory like those in Mt 25:41-46.

Paul goes on…

13 "the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
This is analogous to Mt 25:34-46

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

But what is most interesting is that Paul says that not only is this person will be "saved, so it IS a saved person, however this “saved person” also will “suffer lose”…“only as through fire”

So the question is: How can a “saved” person “suffer lose” IF they are in heaven and go to heaven immediately, yet no one suffers anything in heaven?

The answer is that not everyone is compeletly sanctified when they die, and yet God requires it because heaven and sin are incompatible (Rev 21:27).

And furthermore, the Protestant idea of imputed justification doesn’t fit the Biblical model of making us a “new creation” as Paul says in 2 Cor 5:17, for a mere covering of ones sins only give the affectations of being made intrinically a new creation without the actual effects of it happening.
A covering does NOT erradicate our sins, it merely cloaks them under the blanket of Christ, yet our sins still remain and yet we die with sin on our souls.

There is a place between death and glory that man has to go in order to complete his sanctification IF he doesn’t do so in this life, because very few people in this life die completely sanctified and yet heaven requires complete sanctification.
 
I thought the Pope retired the whole Purgatory premise…What is the origin of that by the way? I was curious. And one thread spoke of the Holy Souls of Purgatory and the intercession they provide us with. Can some one expound in a way that a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled believer might be able to wrap his mind around?
You must be talking about the limbo theory. Purgatory is a doctrine of the faith. Not even the Pope can change that. Look in 1 Cor 3:15. Read what Paul says about what if a righteous mans works fail him. Also in 2 Macc 12:43-45. Problem here. Protestants dont have this book in there bible. Not just that but in the centuries before the Reformation (or revolution) there was no protest of this doctrine.
 
As the Apostles Creed states, Jesus decended to hell. Is it not possible that he went to tell the the souls in hell that they are permanently sealed off from God?
Nope. The Jewish understanding of “hell” was that
ALL souls went there after death(It was comprised of several stages at that time) regardless of weather or not they were followers of God or not(NO soul actually went to heaven or the domain of God)…

What Jesus did was go down into the dead(as it was more correctly known BEFORE the crucifixion) and throw open the gates of heaven to the Good souls that were in “the place of the dead” as it was more commonly and at that time correctly known. He shut down operations and re-tooled it so that the Good souls entered the presence of God in the then newly opened Heaven(and also possibly purgatory) and only the damned went into the old godless place of the dead.

You know, it was kind of why we tend to sing the “god and sinner’s reconciled” lyric of “Hark the Herald Angels Sing”…

It included the overall Good and Christian souls of those that had sinned before christ came along. He kinda went down there to give them the good news and to close up part of the shop for good so to speak. God is God of the Living, not the dead.

In otherwords he shutdown partial operations and compleatly and perminantly altered function of the place, so now we call it “Eternal Damnation” and not just “The place of the dead”.
 
No, no. Fr. Pacwa does NOT say that purgatory is from the Magisterium to the exclusion of scripture. I have listened to him many times and that’s not true.
What you perhaps have mistaken is that the word “purgatory” is a word that conveys a truthful theological concept, just like the word “Trinity” is a word that conveys the triuninty and same substance in nature (homoousius) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirity; that word was created in 325 AD at the council of Nicea, yet the coosubstance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has always been true and yet was revealed in the New covenant, yet was still a theological truth without a specific name prior to the council of Nicea (a council of Catholic Bishops I might add).

Purgatory in the Bible is found a number of places like:

1 Cor 3:13-15
"If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,

Here Paul is using an analogy in human terms, gold, silver and precious stones are those “good works” (Mt 25:34-40) which do not burn very easily and are NOT burned up on judgment day, because they are works done with God’s grace and for His glory. In other words they are truly God’s works in us. St. Augustine said when God crowns our [good] works He is simply crowning His works in us.

And Paul is using wood, straw and hay which in human terms burn up easily as do those personal works done for one’s own glory and NOT for God’s glory like those in Mt 25:41-46.

Paul goes on…

13 "the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
This is analogous to Mt 25:34-46

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

But what is most interesting is that Paul says that not only is this person will be "saved, so it IS a saved person, however this “saved person” also will “suffer lose”…“only as through fire”

So the question is: How can a “saved” person “suffer lose” IF they are in heaven and go to heaven immediately, yet no one suffers anything in heaven?

The answer is that not everyone is compeletly sanctified when they die, and yet God requires it because heaven and sin are incompatible (Rev 21:27).

And furthermore, the Protestant idea of imputed justification doesn’t fit the Biblical model of making us a “new creation” as Paul says in 2 Cor 5:17, for a mere covering of ones sins only give the affectations of being made intrinically a new creation without the actual effects of it happening.
A covering does NOT erradicate our sins, it merely cloaks them under the blanket of Christ, yet our sins still remain and yet we die with sin on our souls.

There is a place between death and glory that man has to go in order to complete his sanctification** IF he doesn’t do so in this life**, because very few people in this life die completely sanctified and yet heaven requires complete sanctification.
Agreed. Really when you think of the amount of numbers of Good souls that came before they could have possibly known the saving grace of Christ and his actions. It is to me rather silly to suggest that salvation utterly ends the exact moment of death.

I mean simply in examining the transition from the General Jewish belief in “the place of the dead”(where all souls went) to the Christian belief of “Hell”(Same place, but with the functionality and purpose of it changed) is evidence that salvation is a process which extends beyond death!
 
Pugatory is not a place. It is an experience of purification that a soul may have to go through at the end of life before entering the Beatific Vision of God (Heaven).
 
Of course not! You just said that Jesus went to the place of souls who were permanently in Hell! We were talking about the Limbo of the Fathers.

(Orthodoxy believes in an intermediate state similar to Purgatory too, by the way.)
they do not believe in a place where one must be burned to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin or the ashes of sin as I was taught. They believe as some Protestants do where when one dies, he/she continues in the process of becoming more and more holy in essence progressing toward Heaven.
 
they do not believe in a place where one must be burned to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin or the ashes of sin as I was taught. They believe as some Protestants do where when one dies, he/she continues in the process of becoming more and more holy in essence progressing toward Heaven.
Thank you, AllSaints. What the orthodox believe and what the Catholic Church believes is pretty much the same thing although termed in different language. Because purification or purgatory is the process of becoming more and more holy in essence progressing toward Heaven. It’s the same thing.
 
Pugatory is not a place. It is an experience of purification that a soul may have to go through at the end of life before entering the Beatific Vision of God (Heaven).
Well, actually purgatory is a place, but not as one of spatial matter as we experience in time, but it is a place nonetheless. Hell is a place as is heaven but again, not in the same spatial sense as we experience in this life. 🙂
 
they do not believe in a place where one must be burned to be cleansed of the temporal effects of sin or the ashes of sin as I was taught. They believe as some Protestants do where when one dies, he/she continues in the process of becoming more and more holy in essence progressing toward Heaven.
It was never defined either, whether or not, or what degree, of pain is involved with the process. I once heard a Catholic theologian call it, bitter-sweet; it is uncomfortable, the purification process, but sweet because one is closer to the Lord than when on Earth (Being in Purgatory is better than being on Earth, because it’s closer to God!) and you can intercede for your living relatives and friends on Earth.
 
As the Apostles Creed states, Jesus decended to hell. Is it not possible that he went to tell the the souls in hell that they are permanently sealed off from God?
The Apostles creed does say “hell” yes. What it means is NOT hell as in the damned, but the netherworld meaning eternity not time. Jesus could NOT have gone to hell since He was without sin.
The souls who are damned would know of their judgement at the moment of their death–Heb 9:27.
The Apostles creed also says “one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.”
 
Well, actually purgatory is a place, but not as one of spatial matter as we experience in time, but it is a place nonetheless. Hell is a place as is heaven but again, not in the same spatial sense as we experience in this life. 🙂
**I don’t think you will find purgatory in the CCC defined as a ‘place’ but it is defined as a process.
 
**I don’t think you will find purgatory in the CCC defined as a ‘place’ but it *is ***defined as a process.
Actually I just head the other day, Tim Staples of Catholic Answers say it was a place more so than a state. Perhaps it is a condition more than a place or state; a condition of being purged–sanctified from sin.
 
Purgatory—

“The term does not indicate a place, but a **condition **of existence.”
John Paul II

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.”
*Catechism of the Catholic Church
*


“Purgatory is the **state **of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.”
Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

“This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.”
Benedict XVI


 
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