Purgatory?

[AllSaints1631]

No, no. Fr. Pacwa does NOT say that purgatory is from the Magisterium to the exclusion of scripture. I have listened to him many times and that’s not true.
What you perhaps have mistaken is that the word “purgatory” is a word that conveys a truthful theological concept, just like the word “Trinity” is a word that conveys the triuninty and same substance in nature (homoousius) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirity; that word was created in 325 AD at the council of Nicea, yet the coosubstance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit has always been true and yet was revealed in the New covenant, yet was still a theological truth without a specific name prior to the council of Nicea (a council of Catholic Bishops I might add).

Purgatory in the Bible is found a number of places like:

1 Cor 3:13-15
"If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,

Here Paul is using an analogy in human terms, gold, silver and precious stones are those “good works” (Mt 25:34-40) which do not burn very easily and are NOT burned up on judgment day, because they are works done with God’s grace and for His glory. In other words they are truly God’s works in us. St. Augustine said when God crowns our [good] works He is simply crowning His works in us.

And Paul is using wood, straw and hay which in human terms burn up easily as do those personal works done for one’s own glory and NOT for God’s glory like those in Mt 25:41-46.

Paul goes on…

13 "the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
This is analogous to Mt 25:34-46

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

But what is most interesting is that Paul says that not only is this person will be "saved, so it IS a saved person, however this “saved person” also will “suffer lose”…“only as through fire”

So the question is: How can a “saved” person “suffer lose” IF they are in heaven and go to heaven immediately, yet no one suffers anything in heaven?

The answer is that not everyone is compeletly sanctified when they die, and yet God requires it because heaven and sin are incompatible (Rev 21:27).

And furthermore, the Protestant idea of imputed justification doesn’t fit the Biblical model of making us a “new creation” as Paul says in 2 Cor 5:17, for a mere covering of ones sins only give the affectations of being made intrinically a new creation without the actual effects of it happening.
A covering does NOT erradicate our sins, it merely cloaks them under the blanket of Christ, yet our sins still remain and yet we die with sin on our souls.

There is a place between death and glory that man has to go in order to complete his sanctification IF he doesn’t do so in this life, because very few people in this life die completely sanctified and yet heaven requires complete sanctification.

Sorry, I do not agree. I listened to a debate on Purgatory between Fr. Pacwa and a Protestant Bible scholar and Fr. Pacwa did admit that thebelief of Purgatory rests more on the Magisterium than it does from Catholic interpretation of the Bible. It has to. 1 Corinthians doesn’t spell out Purgatory. You must read into it. Jesus himself never preached on a place of purification as he did Heaven and Hell. Even the concept of Purgatory itself totally rivals what Scripture says about our salvation.

 

[colliric]

The Apostles creed does say “hell” yes. What it means is NOT hell as in the damned, but the netherworld meaning eternity not time. Jesus could NOT have gone to hell since He was without sin.
The souls who are damned would know of their judgement at the moment of their death–Heb 9:27.
The Apostles creed also says “one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.”

I already pointed this out, but it needs more explination. The Jewish belief of what is “hell” is entirly diffrent to our christian beliefs, when we in the Apostles creed say “Hell”, we actually mean “hell, as it was originally defined in the Jewish traditions”(and all catholics surely need to understand this when they say the AC).

In fact it quite often(As they believed it contained diffrent levels and there was possibility for salvation or clensing of the soul beyond death) bears more resemberlance to what we Christians call Purgatory than the concept of eternal Damnation. In fact it is the root of our Christian belief in that “third place”.

This is a place where some souls were cleaned(Not surprisingly they thought it was “by fire” too, or more specifically god allowed any demon created by your sin to torment you with it until the soul was “sick of hearing it” and “sorry for having done it”) and in some lines of thinking then sat around waiting for the coming Jewish messiah to release them(Sounds familar to me!). Other souls in this place were unsavable.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

I am however not terribly suprised Protestants do not adhere to this belief in Purgatory which most definatly is a continuation of that Jewish belief in a place for “soul clensing” as they do not have any teaching tradition that is external from the bible itself, so it makes sense that they may not have an adequate knowledge of original and still current Jewish traditions that christ would have adhered to.

The Catholic Church, however, does and correctly teaches in a place of “clensing” which is a neocontinuation of the Jewish belief, despite the fact that we personally believe it is now distinctly seperate from eternal damnation(where there is NO possible reprieve) as purgatory is actually on the way to heaven. This was the doing of Christ and why it was nessecery for Christ to go there to “deliver the good news”.

 

[Bishopite]

Purgatory—

“The term does not indicate a place, but a **condition **of existence.”

John Paul II

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm#X

“Purgatory is the **state **of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.”

Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

“This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory.”

Benedict XVI





​

Very good!

 

[Bishopite]

[AllSaints1631;3075826]Sorry, I do not agree. I listened to a debate on Purgatory between Fr. Pacwa and a Protestant Bible scholar and Fr. Pacwa did admit that thebelief of Purgatory rests more on the Magisterium than it does from Catholic interpretation of the Bible. It has to.

The Catholic interpretation of the Bible is the Magisterium.

1 Corinthians doesn’t spell out Purgatory. You must read into it. Jesus himself never preached on a place of purification as he did Heaven and Hell. Even the concept of Purgatory itself totally rivals what Scripture says about our salvation.

Again, how do you explain 1 Cor 3:15 where Paul says this person is “saved” yet “suffers lose”?

How can a person suffer lose in heaven?

 

[colliric]

Sorry, I do not agree. I listened to a debate on Purgatory between Fr. Pacwa and a Protestant Bible scholar and Fr. Pacwa did admit that thebelief of Purgatory rests more on the Magisterium than it does from Catholic interpretation of the Bible. It has to. 1 Corinthians doesn’t spell out Purgatory. You must read into it. Jesus himself never preached on a place of purification as he did Heaven and Hell. Even the concept of Purgatory itself totally rivals what Scripture says about our salvation.

It does NOT rival the original Jewish beliefs in the Afterlife, it compliments it, Jesus allowed the already “clensed souls” to go to heaven when he went down below to visit them!

This is where the tradition of Purgatory actually comes from, he did not abolish this place of clensing from sin, but he did seperate it from “eternal damnation”. It comes from the original religion’s belief in an afterlife where “clensing from sins” occured after death. Jesus did not contradict it in the bible, neither did he abolish the teaching of it. He likely, as tradition of the church says, continued to teach it as is alluded to in 1 conrinthians.

If it was part of the main stream original religious beliefs of the Jewish people(Which it was, despite the fact its never really mentioned in the Bible itself, you see they had a tradition + Scripture based belief too, and they still do) and Jesus didn’t openly contradict it, it is likely true that through silence, he continued to propogate it.

Yes we do rely on the magesterium for it, but you have to understand it was actually one of the traditional beliefs of the Jewish religion that survived untouched into Christianity, and Jesus was Jewish.

It rivals scripture indeed, but Not the original beliefs of the Jewish Religion which crafted the scriptures.

 

[Bishopite]

[colliric;3076246]I already pointed this out, but it needs more explination. The Jewish belief of what is “hell” is entirly diffrent to our christian beliefs, when we in the Apostles creed say “Hell”, we actually mean “hell, as it was originally defined in the Jewish traditions”(and all catholics surely need to understand this when they say the AC).

Right, we mean the netherworld not hell itself.

In fact it quite often(As they believed it contained diffrent levels and there was possibility for salvation or clensing of the soul beyond death) bears more resemberlance to what we Christians call Purgatory than the concept of eternal Damnation. In fact it is the root of our Christian belief in that “third place”.

This is a place where some souls were cleaned(Not surprisingly they thought it was “by fire” too, or more specifically god allowed any demon created by your sin to torment you with it until the soul was “sick of hearing it” and “sorry for having done it”) and in some lines of thinking then sat around waiting for the coming Jewish messiah to release them(Sounds familar to me!). Other souls in this place were unsavable.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Yes. Very interesting thoughts about the Jews. The Jews also (well the strict orthodox) pray for the soul of the departed for 11 months isn’t it?

I am however not terribly suprised Protestants do not adhere to this belief in Purgatory which most definatly is a continuation of that Jewish belief in a place for “soul clensing” as they do not have any teaching tradition that is external from the bible itself, so it makes sense that they may not have an adequate knowledge of original and still current Jewish traditions that christ would have adhered to.

The Catholic Church, however, does and correctly teaches in a place of “clensing” which is a neocontinuation of the Jewish belief, despite the fact that we personally believe it is now distinctly seperate from eternal damnation(where there is NO possible reprieve) as purgatory is actually on the way to heaven. This was the doing of Christ and why it was nessecery for Christ to go there to “deliver the good news”.

I agree with you about Jewish tradition and Protestants. I think they sometimes falsely see the Christianity not as a modification yet a continuation of some God-given Jewish traditions but as God stopping all of their beliefs to institute a new covanent, yet they don’t adequately explain Jewish thought as it applies to scriptural exegesis. And they don’t really have an answer as to what happens to the person who dies without being completely sanctified?
As a convert, I couldn’t argue with the idea that God doesn’t just impute righteousness to us, but infuses His righteousness within us. Besides the idea of imputed righteousness still, again, doesn’t explain what happens to the cloaked sin after death?

 

[Bishopite]

[colliric;3076246]I already pointed this out, but it needs more explination. The Jewish belief of what is “hell” is entirly diffrent to our christian beliefs, when we in the Apostles creed say “Hell”, we actually mean “hell, as it was originally defined in the Jewish traditions”(and all catholics surely need to understand this when they say the AC).

Right, we mean the netherworld not hell itself.

In fact it quite often(As they believed it contained diffrent levels and there was possibility for salvation or clensing of the soul beyond death) bears more resemberlance to what we Christians call Purgatory than the concept of eternal Damnation. In fact it is the root of our Christian belief in that “third place”.

This is a place where some souls were cleaned(Not surprisingly they thought it was “by fire” too, or more specifically god allowed any demon created by your sin to torment you with it until the soul was “sick of hearing it” and “sorry for having done it”) and in some lines of thinking then sat around waiting for the coming Jewish messiah to release them(Sounds familar to me!). Other souls in this place were unsavable.

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Yes. Very interesting thoughts about the Jews. The Jews also (well the strict orthodox) pray for the soul of the departed for 11 months isn’t it?

I am however not terribly suprised Protestants do not adhere to this belief in Purgatory which most definatly is a continuation of that Jewish belief in a place for “soul clensing” as they do not have any teaching tradition that is external from the bible itself, so it makes sense that they may not have an adequate knowledge of original and still current Jewish traditions that christ would have adhered to.

The Catholic Church, however, does and correctly teaches in a place of “clensing” which is a neocontinuation of the Jewish belief, despite the fact that we personally believe it is now distinctly seperate from eternal damnation(where there is NO possible reprieve) as purgatory is actually on the way to heaven. This was the doing of Christ and why it was nessecery for Christ to go there to “deliver the good news”.

Yes, good points. I agree with you about Jewish tradition and Protestants. I think they sometimes falsely see Christianity not as a modification yet a continuation of some God-given Jewish traditions but as God stopping all of their beliefs to institute a new covanent, yet they don’t adequately explain Jewish thought as it applies to scriptural exegesis. Like the idea of God working within fallen humanity. Jews sometimes would say, God writes straight with crooked lines. And they don’t really have an answer as to what happens to the person who dies without being completely sanctified?
As a convert, I couldn’t argue with the idea that God doesn’t just impute righteousness to us, but infuses His righteousness within us. Besides the idea of imputed righteousness still, again, doesn’t explain what happens to the cloaked sin after death?

 

[Bishopite]

It does NOT rival the original Jewish beliefs in the Afterlife, it compliments it, Jesus allowed the already “clensed souls” to go to heaven when he went down below to visit them!

This is where the tradition of Purgatory actually comes from, he did not abolish this place of clensing from sin, but he did seperate it from “eternal damnation”. It comes from the original religion’s belief in an afterlife where “clensing from sins” occured after death. Jesus did not contradict it in the bible, neither did he abolish the teaching of it. He likely, as tradition of the church says, continued to teach it as is alluded to in 1 conrinthians.

If it was part of the main stream original religious beliefs of the Jewish people(Which it was, despite the fact its never really mentioned in the Bible itself, you see they had a tradition + Scripture based belief too, and they still do) and Jesus didn’t openly contradict it, it is likely true that through silence, he continued to propogate it.

Yes we do rely on the magesterium for it, but you have to understand it was actually one of the traditional beliefs of the Jewish religion that survived untouched into Christianity, and Jesus was Jewish.

It rivals scripture indeed, but Not the original beliefs of the Jewish Religion which crafted the scriptures.

Yes, exactly. And you affirm what I just said, that the New Testament (new covenant) is a modification, many times of the old covenant not a strict exstinction of the old covenant beliefs.
As Augustine said, the New Testament is the full flowering of the Old.