Purgatory

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I can speak of the love of Christ and his wonderful work, but no response, no comment, no Allehuia! But I speak of a doctrine or something of the church and I get much response. Unloving responses at that. What do you really believe? Will Christ condemn me for my love for Him?
 
I don’t get it. Are you confusing purgatory and limbo?

Please do your research first.
 
Theology is not always accurate, Christ proved this. So to me limbo and purgatory are orignated in the same manner of human speculation from certain portions of scripture. The church has or is own its way in denying limbo, so what is to say 10 years from now that they could deny purgatory. This is why our faith should be in Christ and not in the church - because we are all imperfect humans. I love the church, but I love Christ more and that is where my faith will always rest.
 
withallmyheart said:
I can speak of the love of Christ and his wonderful work, but no response, no comment, no Allehuia! But I speak of a doctrine or something of the church and I get much response. Unloving responses at that. What do you really believe? Will Christ condemn me for my love for Him?
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I can’t speak for Christ, but the fact that you are telling a lie about one of his faithful servants is very serious indeed. 😦

I read the article you cited and saw nothing about Purgatory other than this sentence:
It would also be gratuitous, in view of the force of the Pope’s language and his use of the word “eternal”, as well as the whole of the previous tradition of the Church, to postulate that perhaps Sixtus V only meant to affirm here that the “exclusion” of such infants from Heaven is at least temporary, i.e., that he wasn’t rejecting here the possibility that Limbo is really only a kind of Purgatory for infants.
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.

As you can see, this does NOT quote the Pope as saying that Purgatory is a “hypothetical thesis born in medieval times.” Can you cite the specific passage from the article to which you are referring?
 
withallmyheart said:
Theology is not always accurate, Christ proved this. So to me limbo and purgatory are orignated in the same manner of human speculation from certain portions of scripture. The church has or is own its way in denying limbo, so what is to say 10 years from now that they could deny purgatory. This is why our faith should be in Christ and not in the church - because we are all imperfect humans. I love the church, but I love Christ more and that is where my faith will always rest.
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The Church and Christ are intertwined. If you love Christ, you must also love His Church – and vice versa.

Where did Christ prove that “theology is not always accurate”?

As for limbo, it was always *theoretical *and not a defined doctrine of the Church. It was a POPULAR theory, and one held by many Popes and theologians, but it was still only a theory.

Can you please cite sources for your claims?

Purgatory, however, is not a theory. It is official Church teaching, and it is not something the Church can or will ever “change its mind” about.
 
I never said that what I quoted was what the Pope (actually) said. He did deny the existence of Limbo and (in my opnion) there is no difference in the beliefs of either one since they both were adopted from scipture that give no real evidence of the actual doctrine of purgatory, instead of a place of the dead itself is how scripture refers to this place. You dramtic response by saying I spoke against or falsely against a servant of the Lord was quiet rash to say. You should understand a persons comment before you throw accusations against them. Maybe you should reread the article to understand me better - it did say limbo was a hypothetical thesis and in my opinion the two are no different. And in the artcle it says this regarding limbo that one is “allowed” not made to believe in the hope of limbo. Again I was not directly quoting what the Pope himself said, but simple expressing my opnion in the way I held the belief of the issue of the matter.
 
WAMH,
You are wrong on this one.

Purgatory is a defined dogma of the Church based upon the Word of God.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Limbo was never anything more than a speculation that has never been a dogma. If it had, then the Pope and the magisterium would not have recently insured correct teaching concerning it.
 
You are very dramtic in your responses to what people say and quiet incorrect. I never said I did not love the church, I said I did, but if our love for Christ does not surpass all things then we can not fulfill the first commandment to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. You are a bit on the rough side of asking for proof of my claims. I told you alot of what I said is my opnion and if your responses are going to be as unkind and childish as the rest, I wish to not confer with you any longer. You are more concerned it seems with proving someone wrong than trying to spread the love of Christ and this is my purpose of responding on the purgatory issue is it contradicts the reason he died for us - if you read and understood any of my other posts.
 
To WANN
Where did Christ prove that “theology is not always accurate”?
All through the gospel referring to the Pharisees and Sadducees on their thelogy and misunderstandings of scripture.
 
If you think that Purgatory contradicts the reason for Our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross then I don’t think you have a good understanding of it. Based upon both the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic Church, I have to disagree and urge you to further study.

It is not a demonstration of love for another to fail to offer correct teaching when someone expresses a belief that is not in line with what the Church teaches.

Personally, I had many errors in my own beliefs that persisted for many years and were only corrected as I carefully studied to show myself approved unto God, rightly handling the word of truth. (See 2nd Timothy 2:15 please.)

Here’s my testimony.
 
withallmyheart said:
I can speak of the love of Christ & his wonderful work, but no response, no comment, no Allehuia! But I speak of a doctrine or something of the church & I get much response. Unloving responses at that. What do you really believe? Will Christ condemn me for my love for Him?
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withallmyheart, you can also speak as a noisy gong under a self-delusion of love & likely get the same response of silence. Fellow Christians uninspired by what they hear often remaining silent out of courtesy & politeness. So I am very sorry to say that you are making a lot of noise in here about things you don’t really understand what you are talking about. That said, your faith is good & meritable.

Limbo, insofar as a discussion of Catholic Theology is concerned is not the same thing as purgatory. All souls in purgatory eventually get to heaven. Not so with Limbo since an unbaptized soul is not pure enough to enter Heaven. We can only hope that God as creator of all principalities & dominions has a plan in the spiritual realm for these pour souls. But Jesus did not give a specific teaching on it since his mission was for those of us here on earth & to compel certain behaviors we could electively control.

Belief in Limbo has been suggested by many popes & Catholic authorities down through the centuries. St. Thomas Aquinas was the first major Catholic theologian who speculated that unbaptized infants went to a limbo. But Limbo has never been an official belief promulgated by the church. To my knowledge no pope has ever ruled on it with the infallible truth conveyed from the Holy Spirit under an ex cathedra teaching. These kinds of teachings are exceptionally rare & usually conveyed to prevent a new apostasy or heresy from promulgating. They typically have the “anathema language” to indicate that the church exercises its authority to automatically holds bound that mortal sin both on earth & in heaven on anyone so committing (e.g. condemned to hell).

But limbo was all about attempting to use the facilities of a rational mind & our best underst&ing of God’s merciful & just nature to account for what happens to babies that die in a state of original sin before being baptized. What mother who miscarried would not be horrified at what happened to her child’s soul? It is the church’s job to comfort & console its flock as best it can from its insights. Also given the millions of aborted babies in this country it is torturous to a Christian mind & soul to resolve how God might help these poor souls. Scriptures make it clear that nothing goes to Heaven without being absolutely pure. Original sin means these unbaptized babies that die in the womb (or left to perish in the fertility clinics as fertilized ovum, morula, zygotes etc.) never had a chance for baptism. Yet we have it as true doctrine that these are imparted a soul at the instant of conception. Note also the medical fact that many fertilized eggs (billions over the years) are often naturally aborted by the body due to imperfect conditions in the womb or defects or illness etc. even when fertilized by conventional means. The human mind can’t conceive that a just God would permit these to go to hell because of original sin & lack of opportunity for baptism. There are also cases of baptized people who suffer mental conditions & strokes that make it impossible for them to confess their prior mortal sins – should these go to hell if not of free mind?

Until we get some authorative teaching or revelation in the interim we can only hope that God has some way that is consistent with his Holy Word that can mitigate what appears to the human mind to be a horrific fate for these babies (I don’t even want to imagine what happens to some evil person who deliberately forces another to hell by killing them knowing they are in an impenitent state!).

I personally have a belief that when Jesus descended to hell (& purgatory) to assert his total dominion over all things on earth, above earth & below earth (figuratively) that he redeemed those that were “good” (but impure) but born before John the Baptist & his resurrection.

We can only assume that God’s Divine Plan has provisions for dealing with all possibilities & states of the human soul; even if all of the implied states are not specifically stated in scripture. All we know for certain is that there are 3 states of the soul - 1) pure (heaven), 2) mortal sin (hell), & 3) remitted/expiated sin (purgatory) that still requires satisfaction of God’s justice & purification. Limbo extends from speculation that there is possibly a 4th state of “original sin” that puts souls “in limbo” somewhere above hell & below heaven.

All we can do is have faith that a just God will “do the right thing”.

Jim
 
James
What makes your responses more creditable in the sight of God, than mine? And do you think your noise is any less noisy?
 
withallmyheart said:
James
What makes your responses more creditable in the sight of God, than mine? And do you think your noise is any less noisy?
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I speak with an intent to inform and enlighten from a perspective of verifiable scriptural basis and factual history. You attempt to impose and assert a devotion to faith with no acts as a sufficient evidence of a foreign pedigree that no one here recognizes outside of your own witness.

Thunder is good thunder is impressive but its lightning that gets the work done.

QED.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
I speak with an intent to inform and enlighten from a perspective of verifiable scriptural basis and factual history. You attempt to impose and assert a devotion to faith with no acts as a sufficient evidence of a foreign pedigree that no one here recognizes outside of your own witness.

Thunder is good thunder is impressive but its lightning that gets the work done.

QED.

James
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👍
 
James
Yes, that is the feeling I am getting among the clan. You rely on your own understanding of scripture and history, and that of other theologians, not by faith in God, which is what scripture says to believe in beyond what is actually written. I have felt more love and faith from protestants discussions than I have here on this forum from my catholic brother and sisters. Did Jesus not say, “this is how people will know you are my disciples is your love for one another?” I see nothing here but arguing theologians who depend on their themselves and doctrines and put more emphasis on these things than living out their faith through love.
 
withallmyheart said:
James
Yes, that is the feeling I am getting among the clan. You rely on your own understanding of scripture and history, and that of other theologians, not by faith in God, which is what scripture says to believe in beyond what is actually written. I have felt more love and faith from protestants discussions than I have here on this forum from my catholic brother and sisters. Did Jesus not say, “this is how people will know you are my disciples is your love for one another?” I see nothing here but arguing theologians who depend on their themselves and doctrines and put more emphasis on these things than living out their faith through love.
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You mistake loving correction for lack of charity and that is not the case at all.

We all have a responsibility to know our faith well.

Even your protestant friends should tell you that you cannot trust your feelings. The following is from the Campus Crusade for Christ site and deals specifically with what I mean.
An important reminder…
**Do Not Depend on Feelings
**
The promise of God’s Word, the Bible - not our feelings - is our authority. The Christian lives by faith (trust) in the trustworthiness of God Himself and His Word. This train diagram illustrates the relationship among fact (God and His Word), faith (our trust in God and His Word), and feeling (the result of our faith and obedience) (John 14:21).

http://www.campuscrusade.com/images/train.gif The train will run with or without a caboose. However, it would be useless to attempt to pull the train by the caboose. In the same way, as Christians we do not depend on feelings or emotions, but we place our faith (trust) in the trustworthiness of God and the promises of His Word.
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from LtPaint
Limbo, as far as I know, is not even mentioned in the CCC

You see, when I went to Catechism class (nearly thirty five years ago, but sometimes it still seems like only yesterday), we were taught that Limbo did exist. As a result, I for one prefer to believe it still does, in spite of what the Church says (I’m referring to the official stance of the Church saying it does not exist). Hey, am I allowed to do that and still remain a Catholic?
Actually, there’s quite a few things I believe that the Church may not teach, come to think of it. I think I’ll write them down and post them, just in case I’m wrong. (That does happen every once in a very great while–alright, maybe more than that!)
 
Unfortunately, this is my last response. I wish to get off this forum from the unwelcoming response and prideful comments I have received from the readers. I have a hard time understanding how people who claim to know God so well, yet love so little could think they are right. Your conduct is a poor testimony to the Lord. No offense, but I was really surprised by all. Do you all really read your scriptures? Then you should know this.
Not all feelings are to be ignored, if that were the case how could we have a heart. Faith in the Lord is what I trust, not my feelings - although I do not wish to ignore my feelings and harden my heart either. The Lord gave us feelings to enjoy one another, but faith to trust in Him.
 
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