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Pilgrim525
Guest
Correction please!
The right title is “UNPUBLISHED MANUSCRIPT ON PURGATORY”.
Pilgrim
The right title is “UNPUBLISHED MANUSCRIPT ON PURGATORY”.
Pilgrim
- Status
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Thaddeus
Guest
withallmyheart- The reason your non-Catholic Christans get along with you better is because you are basing your theology on your own personal opinion, which you stated earlier. That is exactly what protestants do - They make it up as they go along, and when someone disagrees with them, they go off and start yet another church, based on their personal intepretation of scripture.
According to the Bible, Christ is the head of His Church. You cannot separate the head from the Body. Jesus also said that He will send the Spirit to guide His Church in Truth, not personal opinion. You have to believe, if you are Catholic, that the Church teaches THE TRUTH. Purgatory is one of those truths, your personal opinion notwithstanding. If the truth hurts you, and makes you want to get off of the board, then that is your choice. See you when you get back.
According to the Bible, Christ is the head of His Church. You cannot separate the head from the Body. Jesus also said that He will send the Spirit to guide His Church in Truth, not personal opinion. You have to believe, if you are Catholic, that the Church teaches THE TRUTH. Purgatory is one of those truths, your personal opinion notwithstanding. If the truth hurts you, and makes you want to get off of the board, then that is your choice. See you when you get back.
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withallmyheart
Guest
To all
Maybe if we would focus more on getting rid of the sin in our lives by the help of the Holy Spirit rather than using purgatory as a means of a “get out of jail free card” (as some do, and other catholics have actually used that statement to me) then one could understand the importance of living out faith through love, than boastful theology out if ones own heart. The cathechism is plainly clear on sin and its effects toward our salvation. I would think it wiser to put more of an emphasis and wholehearted effort to “workout our salvation with fear and trembling”, as scripture says. We should be trying to make it to heaven, not purgatory. God hates sin and the true child of God must hate it also. And if we do our best in trying to please God and follow His will for our lives by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and confess our sins to Him, He is faithful to forgive us.
We cannot please God by obeying doctrines and offering sacrifices if charity, faith and love are absent as I have witnessed among this forum. Our love for Christ will be evident if our faith is not dead. This makes the purpose of the Christian life completely vain and the Cathechism confirms this and commands us that their is no other way to live out our faith for salvation. Cathecism on sin below:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.htm
Maybe if we would focus more on getting rid of the sin in our lives by the help of the Holy Spirit rather than using purgatory as a means of a “get out of jail free card” (as some do, and other catholics have actually used that statement to me) then one could understand the importance of living out faith through love, than boastful theology out if ones own heart. The cathechism is plainly clear on sin and its effects toward our salvation. I would think it wiser to put more of an emphasis and wholehearted effort to “workout our salvation with fear and trembling”, as scripture says. We should be trying to make it to heaven, not purgatory. God hates sin and the true child of God must hate it also. And if we do our best in trying to please God and follow His will for our lives by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and confess our sins to Him, He is faithful to forgive us.
We cannot please God by obeying doctrines and offering sacrifices if charity, faith and love are absent as I have witnessed among this forum. Our love for Christ will be evident if our faith is not dead. This makes the purpose of the Christian life completely vain and the Cathechism confirms this and commands us that their is no other way to live out our faith for salvation. Cathecism on sin below:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt1art8.htm
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LordHORSEY
Guest
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withallmyheart
Guest
Below is a email I received from a question I asked my parish priest regarding purgatory. It is possible for us to enter heaven just as theif on the cross was able, and this should be our ultimate goal. To me wanting anything less would be not to want to truly give up sin for forgivness as the priest said. And I do believe purgatory is for those who did not live out their Christian life by obeying Christ.
Email:
The issue of purgatory has to do with our acceptance of God’s gift of forgiveness. God’s forgiveness is absolute, and complete. However, God always respects our free will, and God does not impose anything on us.
Purgatory relates to our attachment to sin. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that to be in God’s presence in heaven, there must be no attachment to sin. Thus, all attachment to sin must be purified before entrance to heaven.
The Good Thief accepted Jesus gift of forgiveness totally and completely. He gave up all attachment to sin, and totally surrendered to God’s mercy and love. Anyone who offers this total acceptance to God will go directly to heaven.
But it is possible that some may not totally accept God’s forgiveness.
One example may help. Suppose that someone has done something to hurt me. I am trying to forgive that person, but I still hold a grudge against that person. The call of the Gospel is to love all people and to forgive all people If I hold a grudge, that is an attachment to sin. Before entrance to heaven, I would need to be purified of that grudge against the person who hurt me.
For a more detailed presentation, you can go the the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can access on-line at the Vatican web site. The relevant passages are paragraphs 1030-1032, and paragraph 1472
I hope that this is helpful.
Peace,
Father Ray
Email:
The issue of purgatory has to do with our acceptance of God’s gift of forgiveness. God’s forgiveness is absolute, and complete. However, God always respects our free will, and God does not impose anything on us.
Purgatory relates to our attachment to sin. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that to be in God’s presence in heaven, there must be no attachment to sin. Thus, all attachment to sin must be purified before entrance to heaven.
The Good Thief accepted Jesus gift of forgiveness totally and completely. He gave up all attachment to sin, and totally surrendered to God’s mercy and love. Anyone who offers this total acceptance to God will go directly to heaven.
But it is possible that some may not totally accept God’s forgiveness.
One example may help. Suppose that someone has done something to hurt me. I am trying to forgive that person, but I still hold a grudge against that person. The call of the Gospel is to love all people and to forgive all people If I hold a grudge, that is an attachment to sin. Before entrance to heaven, I would need to be purified of that grudge against the person who hurt me.
For a more detailed presentation, you can go the the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can access on-line at the Vatican web site. The relevant passages are paragraphs 1030-1032, and paragraph 1472
I hope that this is helpful.
Peace,
Father Ray
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I thought you were departing from us and leaving? Please listen to yourself preaching down on everyone in here! How hypocritical are you going to continue to be? Stay on topic or please dismiss yourself.
This forum topic area is explicitly for talking about purgatory. It is a very important topic that we come together to discuss to get a better understanding of. It is only one part of a larger Catholicism - but a very very important part. It is insulting to the sensibilities and piety of everyone who come in here to share insights and then to have you start making uncharitable judgements. You are way out of line for judging that people who believe in purgatory are just looking for a “get out of jail free” card. That in fact is false witness, slander and a sin brother.
I discern that which works in you is a kind of vanity and spiritual immaturity that seeks only to draw attention to yourself and control the agenda topics. Respectfully disagreement is one thing. But If you want to continue to distract from the conversations and talk heresy against church teaching then please just go start another topic thread since you are not in accord with Church Teaching. Further, if you can’t stay on topic please kindly just leave so the rest of us can share our collective insights without interruption.
Purgatory is not a get out of jail free card. NONE of us want to sin and NONE of us want to go to purgatory. Purgatory it is a place of terrible suffering that puts the soul in a state where it knows God and then must pine in agony for desire to see God and share in the beatific vision. The truth is MOST of us will go to purgatory for some time because we lack the saintly fervor to keep ourselves in an absolutely pure state of grace. By causing dissension in here you have caused yourself and some of us others to commit venial sins. A single sin that is not confessed perfectly and expiated from the weight of justice is sufficient to keep one from entering Heaven. Nothing impure can enter heaven. Only by God’s grace can any human ever go straight to heaven. Very few do - not even some of the saints, popes, priests and nuns. The more grace God entrusts to a soul the more is expected of it and the more it must be held accountable to His justice. Only by the mercy of God through Jesus do we have sin’s remitted but we still must pay the debt arising from justice.
You have a completely wrong view of purgatory. It is not a place of escaping God’s judgement it is an act of God’s mercy to us and the very thing that permits his own sense of justice to extend a divinely consistent mercy. That does not deny any faith - quite the contrary that compels a stronger and more vibrant faith!
Can’t you accept the teaching of the faith and the church you claim you follow?
James
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LordHORSEY
Guest
THIS IS CALLED REPARATION!
See post # 64.
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wanner47
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withallmyheart
Guest
Denial…and hard hearted people who have ears but will not hear!!! Even from a Catholic priest himself and the cathecism itself. You are all mislead Catholics looking for a way out of the sin you are committing in these forums through purgatory. Some judgement is necessary to help people see the truth, not to condemn them as you have me out of your anger. I will respond back when my heart directs me to. Can a person change their mind or is it your intention to just ridicule me and try and make me look stupid?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks Joanna, I think most people do not meditate enough on just how profoundly **Holy God **and Heaven are. It’s beyond all human comprehension. Seeing God face to face is such a profoundly supernatural spiritual encounter that nothing impure can stand in God’s presence and live. If anything less than a perfectly purified soul somehow managed to sneak into heaven and somehow push past God’s nine choirs of attendant angels (profoundly impossible) to gaze on God’s profound holiness it would instantly incinerate by his consuming holiness and be forever annihilated.
Great post, James. I hope withallhisheart takes the time to read it.
God wants the souls of those that He calls His own to see His Holy Face and fully share in The Beatific Vision without any fear of instantly dieing by His overwhelming majesty and holiness. Purgatory is an act of mercy and love. It makes it possible for imperfect souls to become purified so that they may be granted permission to be received into His presence to look directly at His Holy face with the confidence they will not be instantly annihilated. It is said that unworthy souls leap into purgatory or hell of their own accord at the recognition of their fear to face God’s Holiness.
Special devotions to St. Michael are especially appropriate for the poor souls in purgatory. I have started praying the Chaplet of St. Michael Devotion. It has incredible indulgences and benefits for self and for any relations we have or will have in purgatory.
Chaplet of St. Michael Prayer
God Bless,
James
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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wanner47
Guest
First of all, Can you not see the irony of the bolded statement?
Secondly, who has ridiculed you? Who has condemned you?
Thirdly, I notice that you have yet to respond to or refute any of the points and evidence presented thus far. Have you indeed “changed your mind”? If so, why the comment about the “sin” we are all allegedly committing by believing in Purgatory? If not, why the comment about wanting to change your mind?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Referencing Post #70 above:
I list below the amazingly powerful and generous indulgences officially granted by the papacy for the Chaplet of St. Michael (ref: Raccolta).
Note, that when a number of days or years remitted is stated it pertains to the penenace time spent in the here and now and NOT in purgatory. These stated times pertain to the older church tradition of assigning very heavy penances (e.g. 100 days or more of prayer and fasting etc.) for confessed sins and the severe time required to be repentatively spent in sorrowful prayer, fasting, and charitable works etc. before The Church would restore a repentant sinner back to full communion with The Church. Modern penances assigned by confessor priests are not as severe (e.g. typically a penance of only a few prayers rather than days and months of prayer). But a true act of sincere penance also implies a personal willingness to take sorrowful responsibility for our sins through genuine penance and contrition. Imposing an additional personal and private penance on self (e.g. committed daily prayer or devotions etc.) that is over and above what the priest assigns is a responsible and charitable act to give God and a clear act of personal sincerity in repentance.
For example, if I were to repent and receive forgiveness through the Sacrament of Penance, the eternal consequences are fully satisfied by the grace of Christ’s suffering on the cross for the forgivness of our sins. Since The Church was given the apostolic authority to hold bound or forgive sin it can apply the merits of Christ and the effects of His atoning Sacrifice (I will have been justified) when I reconcile with the Church through a good Confession. But we still have to pay for the temporal consequences of our sin because God is not only merciful, He is just. Again, even when forgiven we still have to “pay” for the effects of our sin (this includes penance given to us during Confession, personal penance, and the penance that God himself may choose to assign to one to be paid on earth and/or in Purgatory at his discretion), etc.
**111. ANGELICAL CROWN IN HONOUR OF ST. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL. **
It is a pious tradition, that the Archangel Michael revealed to a holy person that he would he well pleased by his bringing into use the following prayers in his honour and in honour of all the angelic host; and that he would repay those who practised this devotion with signal favours, particularly in such times as the Catholic Church should experience some special trial. In this belief, a holy Carmelite nun, of the convent of Vetralla, in the diocese of Viterbo, who died with the reputation of sanctity in the year 1751, made it her delight to practise this method of prayer, commonly called the “Angelic Chaplet;” and it was at the instigation of the nuns of her convent that his Holiness Pius IX., by a decree of the S. Congr. of Rites, dated August 8, 1851, granted the following Indulgences -
i. An indulgence of seven years and seven quarantines every time the Chaplet is said.
ii. An indulgence of 100 days daily to any one who carries this Chaplet about him, or kisses the medal with the representation of the holy angels appended to the said Chaplet.
iii. A plenary indulgence once a month to every one who says daily this Chaplet, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, he shall pray for the exaltation of our holy Mother the Church and the safety of the Sovereign Pontiff.
iv. A plenary indulgence, with the conditions above named, on -
Jim
I list below the amazingly powerful and generous indulgences officially granted by the papacy for the Chaplet of St. Michael (ref: Raccolta).
Note, that when a number of days or years remitted is stated it pertains to the penenace time spent in the here and now and NOT in purgatory. These stated times pertain to the older church tradition of assigning very heavy penances (e.g. 100 days or more of prayer and fasting etc.) for confessed sins and the severe time required to be repentatively spent in sorrowful prayer, fasting, and charitable works etc. before The Church would restore a repentant sinner back to full communion with The Church. Modern penances assigned by confessor priests are not as severe (e.g. typically a penance of only a few prayers rather than days and months of prayer). But a true act of sincere penance also implies a personal willingness to take sorrowful responsibility for our sins through genuine penance and contrition. Imposing an additional personal and private penance on self (e.g. committed daily prayer or devotions etc.) that is over and above what the priest assigns is a responsible and charitable act to give God and a clear act of personal sincerity in repentance.
For example, if I were to repent and receive forgiveness through the Sacrament of Penance, the eternal consequences are fully satisfied by the grace of Christ’s suffering on the cross for the forgivness of our sins. Since The Church was given the apostolic authority to hold bound or forgive sin it can apply the merits of Christ and the effects of His atoning Sacrifice (I will have been justified) when I reconcile with the Church through a good Confession. But we still have to pay for the temporal consequences of our sin because God is not only merciful, He is just. Again, even when forgiven we still have to “pay” for the effects of our sin (this includes penance given to us during Confession, personal penance, and the penance that God himself may choose to assign to one to be paid on earth and/or in Purgatory at his discretion), etc.
**111. ANGELICAL CROWN IN HONOUR OF ST. MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL. **
It is a pious tradition, that the Archangel Michael revealed to a holy person that he would he well pleased by his bringing into use the following prayers in his honour and in honour of all the angelic host; and that he would repay those who practised this devotion with signal favours, particularly in such times as the Catholic Church should experience some special trial. In this belief, a holy Carmelite nun, of the convent of Vetralla, in the diocese of Viterbo, who died with the reputation of sanctity in the year 1751, made it her delight to practise this method of prayer, commonly called the “Angelic Chaplet;” and it was at the instigation of the nuns of her convent that his Holiness Pius IX., by a decree of the S. Congr. of Rites, dated August 8, 1851, granted the following Indulgences -
i. An indulgence of seven years and seven quarantines every time the Chaplet is said.
ii. An indulgence of 100 days daily to any one who carries this Chaplet about him, or kisses the medal with the representation of the holy angels appended to the said Chaplet.
iii. A plenary indulgence once a month to every one who says daily this Chaplet, on any one day when, after Confession and Communion, he shall pray for the exaltation of our holy Mother the Church and the safety of the Sovereign Pontiff.
iv. A plenary indulgence, with the conditions above named, on -
- The Feast of the Apparition of St. Michael. May 18.
- The Dedication of St. Michael. September 29.
- St. Gabriel the Archangel. March 18.
- St. Raphael the Archangel. October 24.
- Holy Angel Guardians. October 2.
Jim
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fcfahs
Guest
Referring to Matthew 5:25-16, one of the passages referenced in post #20 (and elsewhere on this forum) as scriptural evidence of purgatory, we read:
25: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26: Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [emphasis mine.]*
*
If this passage is indeed talking about an afterlife purgatory wherein one must abide until** he has paid** the uttermost farthing for his earthly injustice, how does the church come up with the idea that we, here on earth (or anywhere), can “bail him out” with our works? Also, if purgatory is a place where one must undergo a final purification (or spiritual socialization) process to cleanse his heart of any residual wickedness, how can any Hail Mary’s and Our Father’s that we (here on earth) offer for him expedite that process? There’s certainly no indication of such a “helper out” option given in the above passage. And, I’m inclined to think that a person (here on earth) who is sentence to 90 days in jail for public violence would be be no less “violent of heart” if bailed out by one of his friends, after having served only a few days of his jail sentence.
Notwithstanding, if I have missed something and the Scriptures do indeed say (or imply) that any residual, unpaid debt for our non-mortal wickedness can just as well be paid by our fellow brethren, so as long as it gets paid, please point me to the applicable passages. Otherwise, I remain in danger of believing the popular protestant claim that this “indulgence thing” is little more than a self-serving invention of the Catholic church.
Any help here would be much appreciated.
Frank
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Hi Frank. I am not sure I have the time to commit to an exhaustive and original dissertation on the theology and scripture to prove to you this truth. Fortunately we Catholics can simply just point to the CC and papal rulings with the confidence that the Church has already done all the work in justifying it for us. Certainly no human save Jesus has sufficient merit alone through their own to pay for anyone else’s debts - but Christians have the merits of Christ extended to them through his redemptive grace in a miraculous way that permit us to petition our wills to God to the benefit of others. We rely in all cases on God’s granting of a favor or petition and even when the Church grants an indulgence it may not always be granted if the petitioner is not sincere or in a state of genuine grace. But in most any case of contrite petition we take it in faith that God will grant at least a partial indulgence for others in some proportion to our sincerity and personal merit in accepting the salvic grace of Christ as well as his teachings through The Church.
But when Matthew makes analogies to human traditions of justice (BTW a literary and oration mechanism rather than intended as a fundamental verbatim letter of instruction) can you not in the spirit of his teaching immediately see the latitude of letting another person in good standing pay the debt for another? That is what Jesus’ entire salvation mission was all about - letting his merits offset the eternal debt of our offenses. In the following I borrow from other works from various sources not my own and intermix them with my own:
To wit:
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place (through Jesus): “An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven. This analogy that Matthew makes to an earthly justice system was not meant to be a precise analogy for how God’s Justice operate - clearly God’s Justice is perfect and man’s tends more toward pragmatism and is often corrupt even my human standards.
Just as repentance and faith are needed for the remission of eternal penalties, so they are needed for the remission of temporal penalties. Penance (and purgatory) are the very things that are used to remove the tendency, or concupiscence arising from a familiarity with past sin to compel us to sin again. Pope Paul VI stated, “Indulgences cannot be gained without a sincere conversion of outlook and unity with God”(Indulgentarium Doctrina 11). We might say that the degree of remission depends on how well the penitent has learned his lesson. In other words - we can’t just sin and draw on the forgiveness from Jesus by paying lip-service with an “I am sorry” - we have to really repent. That implies spending some conscientiou time with God (since we are mortal that means giving up some precious life to God) in a repentative reflection of what we have done wrong with serious intention of becoming more Christlike.
We know from Scripture that Christ’s work is applied to us over time and not normally in one big lump (Phil. 2:12, 1 Pet. 1:9).
Paul expressed it thusly: “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col. 1:24).
We cannot gain indulgences for other living persons, but we can gain them for the souls in purgatory, since the Church makes most indulgences applicable to them. Certainly as well, all the heavenly saints may participate in inspiring The Church to pray for the souls in purgatory as well as intercede on their behalf. This is the true treasure of The Church - and it is a perpetual storehouse of spiritual wealth beyond imagine.
It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (II Maccabees 12:46)
I hope this helps,
James
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rich1lenore
Guest
CentralFLJames wrote:
This is a new one on me, as it was to my 89-year-old incredibly devout mother, but I’m wondering if I didn’t misunderstand this. Does this actually refer to the gaining of indulgences, rather than prayer? I always believed that the Communion of Saints all prayed for each other, with 2 exceptions:
I had a question about this point. I recently attended Mass in my former diocese of Arlington, VA, which is known as conservative. A far cry from my current diocese of St. Augustine, FL. Anyway, the priest gave a teaching homily about Purgatory in which he stated that we the Church Suffering can pray and gain indulgences for the Holy Souls in Purgatory as they can pray and gain aid for us, but the Church Triumphant cannot (pray for the Holy Souls) because they cannot meet the demands of God’s justice (because they have been perfected, thus fulfilling God’s justice). This is what I remember being said, but I may have missed something.
This is a new one on me, as it was to my 89-year-old incredibly devout mother, but I’m wondering if I didn’t misunderstand this. Does this actually refer to the gaining of indulgences, rather than prayer? I always believed that the Communion of Saints all prayed for each other, with 2 exceptions:
- the Holy Souls cannot pray for themselves (and I have no idea
why not–can anyone tell me?), and - we don’t pray for the Church Triumphant because they’re
already in Heaven.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Rich, in all cases I would defer in faith to the teaching of your parish priest. These men have spent a lot of time in the seminaries learning not only the rote of the CCC but also the theological reasons (including, scripture, tradition, instruction of the Holy Spirit, revelation) as to “why”.
I am unable to find at hand the full references and orthodox rationale. But I accept at face value the teaching that the saints in heaven are not permitted by God’s justice to directly assign their own merits to the poor souls in purgatory. That apparently is not in God’s Plan nor consistent with his Justice; so it would put them outside of the full communion of saints; an impossible condition for the Heavenly Church. Once in Heaven the Saints are FOREVER assured to be in Heaven & can never be separated or alienated from God nor his Will.
That said, we know that there are enormous numbers of special devotions that God HAS permitted to be extended to His Church on Earth through the merits of the saints. We have hundreds of special devotions in addition to those of Jesus’ and Mary’s.
In my manner of thinking these indulgences can often become an indirect way for the saints to pray for the souls in purgatory through the members of the church on earth. Ha! To me it’s like a quarterback sneak! We on earth who are hungry for God’s graces seek all avenues to perfection. We become receptive to God’s desire to honor his saints (and save souls) by the granting of special devotions. So in our seeking the special graces (out of desire for holiness, repentance or even through the healthy tension & just fear caused through recognition of guilt) we can both honor God’s saints & also indirectly extend a saintly inspired beneficial cause-and-effect on a soul in purgatory. In other words when we invoke an intercession of a saint that the church has assigned an indulgence and also direct that our personal intentions are for those in purgatory we get the double benefit of bringing special honor to a saint as well as benefiting the soul in purgatory - both of which also benefit God, The Church and us personally! Note also some of the devotions have their own specific promises granted by God himself. How is that for Heavenly banking with super leveraged multi-compounding interest of spiritual dividends!?
Is this clever or what? The Church being both in Heaven and on earth forms an integral part of God’s Divine Plan both in heaven, on earth and in the poor souls waiting in the state of purgatory. What goes on here in earth is only one dimension of the spiritual battle that is waged. Our duty and mission on earth is not only for ourselves here on earth! This is for God’s glory and for the glory of His Church and saints too!
See how indulgences form a very powerful and beautiful chained relationship of giving and receiving (as if spiritual coin) for each other while remaining consistent with a Divine Justice! If the devil can lie and cheat to steal souls God certainly can grant every avenue reachable through His Justice and Mercy to enrichen any soul that is destined to be his. Our God is perfectly wise, all knowing and also creative and spiritually-cunning in his ways.
No doubt Satan complains bitterly without a just case every time St. Michal delivers purified souls from the state of purgatory as members of The Church intercede for them with full plenary indulgences! No doubt there is unimaginable joy in heaven and a divine honor bestowed on such a saint who’s inspired that “rescue” or “delivery”.
As for praying “for” the Saints - we do not do that for their salvation since they are already perfected. If we do so by accident (thinking a soul is in purgatory but is in fact already in heaven) then those prayers are credited to the benefit of a soul(s) that God in his omniscience best knows how to apply in accordance with how we would want it to go given His knowledge. Or at his discretion God will direct it to a soul most able to benefit from it. But when we pray to a known saint (canonized) we really are not praying as if in worship but are talking to that saint as if a member of our family (which they are). In these cases we are really praying to God with respect to the special role that Saint has in God’s Plan to permit their intercession or to will that Saint be furthered toward his Divine Mission given by God to benefit Himself and The Church. This no doubt also brings unimaginable honor and extra special recognition to that Saint in heaven among The Heavenly Host; which is shared with all through the Communion of Saints.
We can only imagine that this all leads to a supernatural joy that is available to saints in doing God’s works; and that this joy is all part of the beatific vision that we all get to share in once in heaven.
James
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rich1lenore
Guest
Hi James, and thank you for your answer–very inspiring! I’m Lenore, by the way. Yes, I had understood Purgatory pretty well (I thought) until the priest said that the Saints cannot…and that’s where I think I missed something. I can understand how they cannot gain indulgences for the Holy Souls because this always requires some effort on our part to fulfill. I don’t think he meant to apply that to prayer as well. I know where he is so I will try to email him for clarification.
Thank you also for your explanation of indulgences; that was very helpful.
Do you happen to know why the Holy Souls cannot pray for or help themselves? This is what I’ve heard from both my mom and read in a pamphlet called “Read Me, or Rue It!” about the Souls in Purgatory.
Sorry, I went off topic there!
Thank you again for your help!
Lenore
Thank you also for your explanation of indulgences; that was very helpful.
Do you happen to know why the Holy Souls cannot pray for or help themselves? This is what I’ve heard from both my mom and read in a pamphlet called “Read Me, or Rue It!” about the Souls in Purgatory.
Would that it could be so easy! I honestly do not know what is going on in my diocese, although I’ve heard it’s very liberal. Last year, a Monsignor came to my parish and said Mass. At the end of his Homily on love and marriage, he said, “Remember! Marriage is for ALL Eternity!” This scandalized both me and my husband and caused us great distress.
Sorry, I went off topic there!
Thank you again for your help!
Lenore
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Hi Lenore, I am sorry to hear the implication that your marriage is such a burden to have to suffer the thought of carrying it all through eternity. Perhaps there are extra-special indulgences to be gained by persevering in that suffering act of love.
Kidding, of course.
It’s my understanding as well that the marriage vows are fulfilled at death and the marriage per say is not in force for eternity. But I can see no way that God would let a loving relationship be separated by death unless he wanted the person’s love all to himself. But that very idea also seems foreign to His divine nature since he gives us the Communion of the Saints.
Interesting enough I myself am a not very distant widower who has lost my Catholic spouse. As you can imagine I have been contemplating and researching at depth what the after-death relationships are with deceased spouses. It’s semi-on-topic so I will mention that the best I can come up with is that those that make it to heaven live like the angels and we remain in a communion of love with the rest of the saints. It’s not well defined if God still permits an extraordinary sort of relationship though - but my heart tells me He does (just like Jesus has one with His mother). I will share that I find it most difficult to even consider severing the partnership at that spiritual level though just because of physical death. My natural spousal inclination as a committed partner is to seek from love and duty to do everything I possibly can for her while still alive on earth. If there is even a slight possibility she fell short of heaven (plenty of plenary indulgences and masses offered) I still want to continue in that labor of love for as long as I have the breath to do so. I also implicitly assume she would so the same for me through whatever means God permitted her to from either purgatory or through inspiration in Heaven.
By human standards is sure seems unfair to those that married Saints that we might not get any additional benefits from that relationship when they go straight to heaven!
Peace,
James
R
rich1lenore
Guest
Hi again James, yes both my husband and I need lots of extra prayers to make it through all eternity together! Wonder how the Mormons do it? LOL!
Really, I find your thoughts on the subject much more coherent, and I too believe that I will continue to know and love my husband in heaven, but that we will indeed be “like the angels, neither taking nor giving in marriage.” I sincerely hope and pray that I will know and remember all my loved ones, and be with them in perfect communion in Heaven.
And, you know, if the good Monsignor had included these views in his homily, rather than focusing entirely on marriage here on earth, perhaps his closing statement would not have been such a shock. I know we weren’t the only ones who felt uncomfortable.
I did actually exchange emails with him about my discomfort and he pointed me towards a Zenit news article reporting some remarks during a daily audience with the, umm I forget the title, I believe it was something like the Pope’s personal priest? Anyway, he had been asked about marriage in heaven, and he prefaced his thoughts with “does not preclude the possibility of,” and then offered some thoughts very similar to yours. I was actually relieved to read this, because the Monsignor somehow seemed convinced that this was dogma that we all should follow without question, and why was I even questioning him about this?
Thanks again for your reply. I’m grateful to have a place to come with my questions about the faith.
Really, I find your thoughts on the subject much more coherent, and I too believe that I will continue to know and love my husband in heaven, but that we will indeed be “like the angels, neither taking nor giving in marriage.” I sincerely hope and pray that I will know and remember all my loved ones, and be with them in perfect communion in Heaven.
And, you know, if the good Monsignor had included these views in his homily, rather than focusing entirely on marriage here on earth, perhaps his closing statement would not have been such a shock. I know we weren’t the only ones who felt uncomfortable.
I did actually exchange emails with him about my discomfort and he pointed me towards a Zenit news article reporting some remarks during a daily audience with the, umm I forget the title, I believe it was something like the Pope’s personal priest? Anyway, he had been asked about marriage in heaven, and he prefaced his thoughts with “does not preclude the possibility of,” and then offered some thoughts very similar to yours. I was actually relieved to read this, because the Monsignor somehow seemed convinced that this was dogma that we all should follow without question, and why was I even questioning him about this?
Thanks again for your reply. I’m grateful to have a place to come with my questions about the faith.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Lenor I think I found that book link you were talking about:
theworkofgod.org/Library/Purgatry/Readme.htm
This is a pretty good link about purgatory too:
opusangelorum.org/Formation/Purgatory.html
The CCC at face value seems to suggest that the Saints in Heaven can pray for those in purgatory. But I agree, I have read somewhere that they can’t for some reason realated to God’s Justice.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2B.HTM
I just found a very nice prayer I wanted to share that was given to St. Gertrude. She indicates it will release 1,000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said.
*Eternal Father,
I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus,
in union with the Masses said throughout the world today,
for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory,
for sinners everywhere,
for sinners in the Universal Church,
those in my own home and within my family.
Amen.*
James
theworkofgod.org/Library/Purgatry/Readme.htm
This is a pretty good link about purgatory too:
opusangelorum.org/Formation/Purgatory.html
The CCC at face value seems to suggest that the Saints in Heaven can pray for those in purgatory. But I agree, I have read somewhere that they can’t for some reason realated to God’s Justice.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2B.HTM
I just found a very nice prayer I wanted to share that was given to St. Gertrude. She indicates it will release 1,000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said.
*Eternal Father,
I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus,
in union with the Masses said throughout the world today,
for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory,
for sinners everywhere,
for sinners in the Universal Church,
those in my own home and within my family.
Amen.*
James
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