Purgatory

[fcfahs]

Originally Posted by withallmyheart forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
* Jesus Christ death was a full atonement for our sins as scripture plainly says. And as Hebrews says, “There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins”, since Jesus death was the atoning work for the sins of man. The doctrine of purgatory contradicts the gospel message of Christ atoning death. I am not saying there is not a purgatory, but I think man made rules are to be avoided, especially when they contradict the work of Jesus Christ death for our sins. Also, if a person is truly born again, they will not WANT to sin and when they do sin they quickly repent and confess it.*

I fully agree with this. And, in Romans 7, Paul gives us probably the clearest picture to be found in the Bible, of what it means to be truly** born again of the spirit**. Of course, the entire chapter must be read to fully understand Paul’s message, but I would like focus on verses 20 - 25…

*20: Now [born again of the spirit] if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

• 21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
  22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
  23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
  24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
  25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To me, this is saying that a person who is truly “born again of the spirit” is utterly incapable of committing what the CC has defined as “mortal sin.” That is, one who’s mind and heart (soul) is totally realigned to love and righteousness (born again of the spirit), could never have or give full consent to sin.

To me, this also says that folks out there who are going to the sacraments regularly, doing their fair share of good works, and think they are born again Christians, but still “can’t help” cheating in business, getting plastered at the pub on weekends, or maybe going to bed with the sexy gal/guy they met at the gym last night (even though they confess these sins), are only fooling themselves about being “born again of the spirit.” Indeed, I think they are those spoken of in Matthew 7:22-23.

Not only do I think truly born-again Christians are incapable of mortal sin, I also believe they are not spiritually responsible for what the CC defines as “venial sin.” For the truly born again in the spirit, venial sins are so inconsistent with the person’s will that they are nothing more than “accidents,” and already forgiven even before they are committed. I see them as blamable on a** truly born again spirit** as an arm that swings out reflexively, after being hit in its funny bone, and pokes out someone’s eye.

Frank

 

[withallmyheart]

I fully agree with this. And, in Romans 7, Paul gives us probably the clearest picture to be found in the Bible, of what it means to be truly** born again of the spirit**. Of course, the entire chapter must be read to fully understand Paul’s message, but I would like focus on verses 20 - 25…

20: Now [born again of the spirit] if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24: O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To me, this is saying that a person who is truly “born again of the spirit” is utterly incapable of committing what the CC has defined as “mortal sin.” That is, one who’s mind and heart (soul) is totally realigned to love and righteousness (born again of the spirit), could never have or give full consent to sin.

To me, this also says that folks out there who are going to the sacraments regularly, doing their fair share of good works, and think they are born again Christians, but still “can’t help” cheating in business, getting plastered at the pub on weekends, or maybe going to bed with the sexy gal/guy they met at the gym last night (even though they confess these sins), are only fooling themselves about being “born again of the spirit.” Indeed, I think they are those spoken of in Matthew 7:22-23.

Not only do I think truly born-again Christians are incapable of mortal sin, I also believe they are not spiritually responsible for what the CC defines as “venial sin.” For the truly born again in the spirit, venial sins are so inconsistent with the person’s will that they are nothing more than “accidents,” and already forgiven even before they are committed. I see them as blamable on a** truly born again spirit** as an arm that swings out reflexively, after being hit in its funny bone, and pokes out someone’s eye.

Frank

Frank,
I could not agree with you more. I actually was going to post Romans 7 in my next thread. Johns 1st letter in the new testament also confirms how a person knows they are born again and has salvation, and is born of God. I see that you have much understanding of this, and I am grateful to you and the Lord for your witness. And all of this is only possible because of the Lord Jesus Christ to whom we owe our entire lives to as our spiritual sacrifice. He makes all things possible!
God bless!

 

[CentralFLJames]

I think it may be appropriate here to interject the actual Catholic Church teaching.

Are Catholics “Born Again”? Yes - most definitely.

When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

Anything materially different from this is way downstream of Catholic doctrine and far from the fount of truth.

Regeneration (being “born again”) is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17)

Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” When Paul was converted, he was told, “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16).

The anti-baptismal regeneration position held by various Protestant strains and sects is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. Catholics should ask Protestants, “Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?” If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again “the Bible way,” regardless of what he may think.

QED
End of Discussion.

More here: Are Catholics Born Again

Peace,
James

 

[chefalexander]

My question is, if a Christian commits a mortal sin which kills their spirit (the meaning of mortal), then why are they not treated as unbelievers and required to be re-baptized?..I am open to enlightenment.

The general discussion on Purgatory has been fantastic, but I did want to address this point. You cannot be re-baptized–It is a one shot deal, which leaves a permanent mark on the soul, just as Confirmation and Holy Orders do. When we are baptized, yes our sins (and primarily Original Sin) is forgiven, but we are also ‘marked’ as a member of the body of Christ–His Church.

As to ‘unforgiven sin’ at the time of death, I have heard Priests say that, say for example, you are dieing in a car crash and make a ernest confession and repentence to God directly, by His Mercy and Grace, you may be forgiven without the actual Sacrement

 

[CentralFLJames]

The general discussion on Purgatory has been fantastic, but I did want to address this point. You cannot be re-baptized–It is a one shot deal, which leaves a permanent mark on the soul, just as Confirmation and Holy Orders do. When we are baptized, yes our sins (and primarily Original Sin) is forgiven, but we are also ‘marked’ as a member of the body of Christ–His Church.

As to ‘unforgiven sin’ at the time of death, I have heard Priests say that, say for example, you are dieing in a car crash and make a ernest confession and repentence to God directly, by His Mercy and Grace, you may be forgiven without the actual Sacrement

You are 100% correct chefalex - one Baptism.

As for others talking about being incapable of sin after “being born again (e.g. baptised)” - that’s “hogwash”.
Luke 17:1-4:

1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

Clearly the passage indicates that sin is inevitable. Brother’s can safely be taken here without consequence to assume both those persons baptised in Christ (e.g. those so called “born again” in Protestant circles) as well as the non-baptised common brothers in humanity. By necessity of elementary logic this also implies “self” as well. This is sufficient evidence alone that Christ knows that it is “inevitable” that even his disciples will sin (e.g. Peter denying him 3 times and Judas betraying him in the worst way). If somone wants to attempt to make the argument that they had not yet received the Holy Spirit then one only need look to the quarrels that existed among the early apostles (e.g. Peter and Paul and James & Paul) or the thorn in the flesh that nagged Paul (a repentant murder of St. Stephen) after the event of the tongues of fire (descent of the Holy Spirit metaphorically).

The only one who is incapable of sin is Jesus himself by reason of his divinity. While humanity holds a free-will he is never “safe” from the occasion or opportunity for sin until he is delivered pure and holy to heaven. God does not want robots - he wants active expression of love from a liberty of free-will from those willing to “forgive them as they forgive each other”. That forgiveness that is core to the teaching Jesus gave in how to pray the Our Father is implicit that his people are prone to sin - but also open to forgiveness by way of his grace.

It is also important to point out that the old church used to give out very heavy penances for remission of sins. They insisted on very public and exclusionary repentance that could last for months with no access to communion or even to be seated with their fellow Christians in church until readmitted. What the priest’s give now for penance (a few token prayers) is assumptive of a genuine act of contrition and private penance that extends from sincere reflection and devoted intent to overcome the tendency to sin again. It is not sufficient to go to confession, say a few penitential prayers and feel like its all done with - one has to really make a conscious and sincere effort to repent through self denial. Thank God though that we no longer have to segregate or cloister ourselves away from the church for more than a few minutes of prayer anymore though.

James

 

[Nick_Jones]

Purgatory is the place people end up who repent for their sins, but still remember their sins fondly or have attachment to sin even though they’ve repented of it and haven’t yet committed the sin again after Confession - see the Book of Indulgences.

What happens to those people who spend years of time in purgatory and they still remember their sins fondly or have attachment to sin? Is there any limit to the time it takes for purgation to take effect? And what if someone gets out of purgatory (finally goes to heaven) and then starts to remember their sins fondly again?

 

[peary]

Both Purgatory and Limbo are products of *speculative theology. *This means that theologians have created these ideas in an effort to answer questions about how God’s mercy and justice may be satisfied by conditions following death. Since these questions can be answered only by God and since belief in private revelation is not required of Catholics, no one can tell definitively how God resolves the problem of the unbaptised or those in a state of sin but not in mortal sin at the time of death. There is no requirement that we believe either in Purgatory or Limbo. There never has been, so the question as to whether we still believe in it is a logical nonsense.

**Limbo is a matter of speculative theology and has been since the time of Augustine. However, purgatory (or the soul’s purification after death) is a *dogma of Faith *and it’s roots go deeply into the past of not only the Church but of Judaism itself.

It is true that the Church leaves speculation on unbaptized babies to God. However, the Catechism of the Catholic Church makes it *very clear without question *that Purgatory is a dogma of Faith and that we are required as Catholic Christians to believe in its existence. I don’t know where drafdog is getting his information but it is totally false. This is not a ‘private’ belief or revelation. This is a constant Church teaching on the soul and its existence.

Drafdog would do well to read what the CCC teaches instead of spreading false information on Catholic teaching: It is found in Part 1 of “the Profession of Faith,” Section Two, “The Profession of the Christian Faith,” Chapter 3 “I believe in life everlasting”, nos. 1020 through 1032. The specific reference to Purgatory is found in nos. 1030-1032.**

 

[agangbern]

I have heard different scenarios from different catholics. I have heard that we have been forgiven of our sin, but we must still be punished for our sin in purgatory.

So you have simply heard from different catholics, but not of what the Church truly teaches about the matter? I have not heard that the Church teaches that for a sin that has already been forgiven the person still has to be punished for it in purgatory.

Oftentimes, if not all the time, hearsay is inadmissible as evidence.

I have seen catholics use prayers, novenas, certain days of adoration, and etc to gain less time for themselves in purgatory. Many of these catholics are not as interested in ones who have gone before us and helping them out in purgatory as they are in helping themselves. I find it quiet shallow and I am astonished as how people can think that saying prayers will get them time out of purgatory, rather than making the decision to stop gossiping and fighting and etc.

It seems that you also have seen the content of the hearts of those catholics while you saw them praying novenas, etc., that the content of their heart is to “gain less time for themselves in purgatory”. You seem indeed almost omniscient like God.

This is what God wants from us, not empty prayers. God looks at the heart. What God wants from us is a changed repentant heart. And for anyone to say that this change of thinking cannot be done and it is hard, then I can testify that it is possible. Changing our ways and getting rid of the habitual sin in our lives is very very much possible, gossiping is one of them. I use to be very bad about gossiping, but after a spiritual awakening I experienced I can say that I no longer live life gossiping as I used to.

Catholics also believe in that. But what worries me somehow is what you mean by “empty prayers”.

Also, the catholics I am around would rather say prayers and novenas for these indulgences than read scripture for a half hour as it states in my catechism that (a plenary indulgence will be granted to the faithful who read 30 minutes a day of scripture!)
They tell me I am wrong… I find that hard to believe… I know God looks at the heart and intention.

It is true that plenary indulgence will be granted to a person who prayerfully and with humility to the Holy Spirit reads the Scripture. But between praying the novena and reading the scripture, there simply is no point of comparison as regards their value to salvation. They each have their own purpose.

 

[nomolos]

I thought the Pope abolished the idea of limbo since there is no biblical facts earlier this year. As far a purgatory there is scripture on this matter. Settle your affairs before going to court if not the judge will find you guilty and through you in jail, or the one about forgiving as in the richman forgave his servant debts for he had alot but that servant did not forgive his servants debt and he only had a little then the rich man found out and put him in jail and had him beat till all is repaid.

 

[Vincent]

What happens to those people who spend years of time in purgatory and they still remember their sins fondly or have attachment to sin? Is there any limit to the time it takes for purgation to take effect?

This is what Pope Benedict XVI says on “time” in Purgatory:

**It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ.

Encyclical Spes Salvi, 47.
**​

 

[fcfahs]

Originally Posted by withallmyheart
The only one who is incapable of sin is Jesus himself by reason of his divinity. While humanity holds a free-will he is never “safe” from the occasion or opportunity for sin until he is delivered pure and holy to heaven.

James,

I never said that one with a truly born again of the spirit couldn’t sin ( violate God’s Law ), and neither did Paul say he was incapable of sin. In fact, Paul confessed quite the contrary! But, what Paul also said ( and I said in post #102 ) is that he ( and any Christian **truly born again of the spirit **) is not spiritually responsible ( or condemned by God ) for sin…

**Now **[born again of the spirit] if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:20

Frank

 

[fcfahs]

Originally Posted by withallmyheart
Are Catholics “Born Again”? Yes - most definitely.

When a Catholic says that he has been “born again,” he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being “born again.”

James, my friend, perhaps we should…

1. Temporarily put the term “born again” on the back burner, along with the Catholic’s definition of it and the Evangelist’s definition of it, as “graciously” provide by the New Advent via your link.

and

1. Come up with an entirely new word-construct to describe what happened to Paul, on his journey to Damascus, when God (totally unsolicited by Paul or anyone else) reached down and spun Paul’s heart, mind and spirit 180 degrees.

This transformation, which caused Paul (not by any choice he made) to do an “about FACE” from his former belief system toward one totally ordered by God, is the same transformation that each of us must ultimately experience, if we are ever to be welcome at the “Pearly Gates.”

Of the thousands of Catholics I’ve known intimately throughout my life, all of who had been formally “born again of the water and the Holy Spirit” by baptism during their childhood, only a handful of them ever impressed me as having the totally God-directed heart and spirit that Paul speaks of himself as having. I would hardly say they (the vast majority) were cold in their faith, but they were far from being hot in it. Perhaps the best descriptive would be “lukewarm.” But, we all know from Revelation 3:16 how God feels about “lukewarm” Christians.

In short, I think the vast majority of today’s Christians (Catholic or otherwise) erroneously believe there’s going to be a “traffic jam” at the “Pearly Gates.” When, in reality, the only ones who will be there are the few, demonstratively “hot” in their faith. And, such “born-again” commitments to a life of Godliness do not start with any “choice” we make, but rather through (and only through) God’s “not for everyone” gift of grace.

Hebrews 10:16-18
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Frank

 

[withallmyheart]

You are 100% correct chefalex - one Baptism.

As for others talking about being incapable of sin after “being born again (e.g. baptised)” - that’s “hogwash”.

Clearly the passage indicates that sin is inevitable. Brother’s can safely be taken here without consequence to assume both those persons baptised in Christ (e.g. those so called “born again” in Protestant circles) as well as the non-baptised common brothers in humanity. By necessity of elementary logic this also implies “self” as well. This is sufficient evidence alone that Christ knows that it is “inevitable” that even his disciples will sin (e.g. Peter denying him 3 times and Judas betraying him in the worst way). If somone wants to attempt to make the argument that they had not yet received the Holy Spirit then one only need look to the quarrels that existed among the early apostles (e.g. Peter and Paul and James & Paul) or the thorn in the flesh that nagged Paul (a repentant murder of St. Stephen) after the event of the tongues of fire (descent of the Holy Spirit metaphorically).

The only one who is incapable of sin is Jesus himself by reason of his divinity. While humanity holds a free-will he is never “safe” from the occasion or opportunity for sin until he is delivered pure and holy to heaven. God does not want robots - he wants active expression of love from a liberty of free-will from those willing to “forgive them as they forgive each other”. That forgiveness that is core to the teaching Jesus gave in how to pray the Our Father is implicit that his people are prone to sin - but also open to forgiveness by way of his grace.

James

1 John 3: 1-11 is regarding the Children of God, not a brother who does not know Him as of yet, and this will not contradict other scriptures, which you have used. We all know that the goats and sheeps are mixed together, as so does the Lord who gave us this verification. But we are to help those who do not yet know Him and forgive them. Let me repeat Frank: mortal sin is not a part of the born again person as John said in his letter, venial sin can be, but it is not in the intention of the born again person to want to sin. Being a Catholic, Methodist, Baptist or whatever does not mean you a born again because of the religion. We are baptized for the remission of sins, but we are born of the spirit which can happen separately because it has to do with the heart and will of the person to repent and change his life from serving sin, to serving Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Water alone cannot do this, it has to be in the will of the person because God does not force himself on us. God looks at the heart, we really need to see how important that is.

1 John 3: 1-11
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him )purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5You know that He appeared in order to )take away sins; and )in Him there is no sin.
6No one who abides in Him )sins; no one who sins has seen Him or )knows Him.
7(Little children, make sure no one )deceives you; )the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is )of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God )appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who)does not love his )brother.
11(For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

God bless!

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **Pat the Cat **

Which brings me to that point. If we die, and we have NOT made repairation for ALL our sins, then we will pass through a place called purgatory where we will be perfected and repairation will be made, because only perfect things can be in Heaven. After we have made repairation for our sins in purgatory we will then enter into Heaven

**Purgatory is **not a place. It is a spiritual experience of the soul. It is more somesort of ‘purification’ before we enter the Beatific Vision of Heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not state that it is a ‘place’ but, rather, an experience that some souls experience immediately after death. Not everyone goes through purgatory. Some enter Heaven immediately; some enter Hell. However, those in purification are drawn into Heaven.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Frank:

In short, I think the vast majority of today’s Christians (Catholic or otherwise) erroneously believe there’s going to be a “traffic jam” at the “Pearly Gates.” When, in reality, the only ones who will be there are the few, demonstratively “hot” in their faith.

I agree 100% with this bit. I hate the term “born again” - it’s really a marker for an imbalanced theological perspective born from the errors of Protestantism.

The overwhelming majority of us are “lukewarm” in God’s eyes - irrespective of how many public “hallelujahs” or how fast and loudly some can clap their hands under the revival tent while the preacher is screaming in an amplified voice “come to Jesus and be saved!”. God does not call “hot” a thing resembling a pep rally. He wants a spiritual devotion, contriteness and piety while calling us to be nothing short of the holiness of the saints.

The accounts of the lives of the saints give us visions of what purgatory is about. When one starts to read some of the more mystical revelations or visions from Hell or Purgatory we get a very sobering perspective. The evidence from scripture (e.g. Matthew 22:14 " For many are called, but few are chosen" etc.), and the evidence of revelation (from our saint’s) and even the evidence of our own common sense manifest by our frequent guilt through fears and anxiety expressed in this theological area compel a disturbing picture of reality. That apparent truth is that a much larger number of souls go to hell as go to heaven (perhaps as many as 75% of souls may go to hell!). Of those remaining 25% or so that eventually go on to heaven it looks like probably at best around 5% of 25% (1.25% of all souls) go straight to heaven. The rest go to purgatory for purification. Sobering – and I suspect most tepid souls think wrongly that they are “saved” and will go straight to heaven. Huge error.

Back on topic:
In purgatory there is no concept of time since the souls are immortal. St. Michael and St. Mary are said to visit often and to elevate or return souls to heaven and give them comforting words or encouragement. Modern church speculation is that purgatory is a “state of existence”. But the saintly revelations suggest a concept of “hierarchy” and “intensity”. Some saints tell us that in purgatory some souls barely judged worthy are literally right “on the edge” of hell where demons can actually see them. Some of these at the bottom are so attached to sin that they must stay in purgatory until the 2nd judgment unless we on earth intercede for them to promote them. At this lowest level the souls are said to suffer at the same intensely as do the souls in hell. Above that there are 2 or so other categories or regions each with many additional levels. At some of the upper levels apparently it is less a matter of suffering as it is a peaceful waiting but intense pining to see God.

Again the saints tell us that all souls suffer in purgatory but even in anguish they are in a joyful suffering knowing that they are saved. Apparently they can vividly know God’s thoughts about them & are permitted to pray for us on earth & benefit by our prayers for them as well. As some souls progress right to the edge of leaving purgatory for heaven some wait indefinitely since although they want to see God they are still spiritually afraid they are not worthy to. These and the ones at the bottom are the one’s who most need our prayers to promote them.

Depending on severity and number of sins, without intervention it can take 100’s of years of equivalent earth time to purify souls. One visionary Carmelite nun indicates that most cloistered nuns spend on average of 30-40 equivalent earth years in purgatory!!! This gives us a shocking reference for the effort of devotion & prayer required to assist a soul in purgatory or to prepare our own. But we also have these extraordinary Church feast days and awesome plenary intercessions that God grants through his graces and love for His Church to elevate the sufferings souls straight to heaven! But we must be in a pure state ourselves to get the full benefit. Most fall short of attaining the full plenary indulgence due to our sin or insincerity in performing the indulgence. This is why we Catholics need to recall that we are “a priestly people” – we have enormous powers through the apostolic blessings and can GREATLY help these souls when in a state of grace.

So Protestant complaints of Catholics habitually sinning and then insincerely using confession are valid. But as valid is that without confession (through a priest) or death bed graces achieved through intercessions and indulgences even a single sin means we all suffer in purgatory. Confession is not a “GET OUT OF JAIL FREE CARD” in God’s Justice. Each new sin adds to the debt and suffering owed in purgatory.

Thank God for His mercy in giving us Purgatory!

James

 

[withallmyheart]

Agangbern quote:
It seems that you also have seen the content of the hearts of those catholics while you saw them praying novenas, etc., that the content of their heart is to “gain less time for themselves in purgatory”. You seem indeed almost omniscient like God.

Catholics also believe in that. But what worries me somehow is what you mean by “empty prayers”.

Withallmyheart quote:
1 John 3: 7-8
7(Little children, make sure no one )deceives you; )the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is )of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God )appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

This is how you know (sccipture above). Let me ask: where does your authority come from? You seem to be judge of what other peoples feelings are regarding their neighbors (as you did mine) rather than seeing their actions. I know these people intimately, unlike you know me. You are accusing me of acting as if I am equal to God, and you claim to have all the answers and be the judge of things you do not know?
The catholics I was referring to that I know, told me from their very mouths, “we can do this to shorten our time in purgatory.”

 

[CentralFLJames]

1 John 3: 1-11 is regarding the Children of God, not a brother who does not know Him as of yet, and this will not contradict other scriptures, which you have used.

WAMH, sorry, you are trying to preach your own personally conceived theology and map things in terms and semantics that you are comfortable with (e.g. “Born again”).

The Church teaching is we become born again at baptism. It is up to the individual working in cooperation with God’s salvific grace (and his sacraments - confession) to remain in Christ. This means for most of us we do not attain perfection in Christ until purified in purgatory and through the merits of Jesus alone and God’s salvific graces can anyone of us enter heaven. Most of us have no clue how often we subconsciously “sin” against God as a matter of habit. Even misusing one’s time to non-productive and circular argument is sinful - and you and I are now doing that. I presume to imagine that you think you are “born again”. Yet you sin - because that is the nature of the flesh we can not cast off that nature fully and fully transform until after death. That happens either in purgatory (where most of us go) or through extraordinary grace extended at the instant of death through God’s will and his granting permissions through the intercessions of The Church and her spiritual gifts (various indulgences and promises of devotions and life long prayer). Recall the Hail Mary prayer “…Holy Mary, mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen”. That prayer is to beseech Mary and the saints to intercede through Jesus with God to grant us the final graces to ascend to heaven at death.

The bottom line is that the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its paragraphs 1302-1303 states when we get a deeper outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Confirmation but it is present in Baptism: To wit:

It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.
From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:

• it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, “Abba! Father!” (Romans 8:15);
• it unites us more firmly to Christ;
• it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
• it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;
• it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross: Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God’s presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.
  The roots of confirmation are found in Acts of the Apostles 8:14-17.

If Catholic you need to embrace your teaching. If not then you need to live with your own errors and come into an understanding of the truth.

There is really no more to be said to you here.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

One final thought:
Matthew 22:14:

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Clearly Jesus called Peter as he did the other apostles (including Judas). Not all remained in him fullyat all times in their life - but the end goal and state is what is most important to God. Judas committed a mortal sin and only God knows his final fate. But Peter was called a Satan in the instant he was used in a way that offended Christ spiritually. Yet we take in faith that Peter died fully in Christ and was received as God’s child at his time of death since Christ continued to keep him in his company as his disciple. It is entirely possible that even some of the apostles even spent some time in purgatory since they were all too very human and committed various venial sins of jealousy, rivalry and other things that we can derive implicitly from scripture. These chosen men all received the Holy Spirit in a profound and “full” way “fully” yet we can surmise from the little details we have that even these occasionally sinned.

James

 

[withallmyheart]

One final thought:
WAMH, sorry, you are trying to preach your own personally conceived theology and map things in terms and semantics that you are comfortable with (e.g. “Born again”).

Clearly Jesus called Peter as he did the other apostles (including Judas). Not all remained in him fullyat all times in their life - but the end goal and state is what is most important to God. Judas committed a mortal sin and only God knows his final fate. But Peter was called a Satan in the instant he was used in a way that offended Christ spiritually. Yet we take in faith that Peter died fully in Christ and was received as God’s child at his time of death since Christ continued to keep him in his company as his disciple. It is entirely possible that even some of the apostles even spent some time in purgatory since they were all too very human and committed various venial sins of jealousy, rivalry and other things that we can derive implicitly from scripture. These chosen men all received the Holy Spirit in a profound and “full” way “fully” yet we can surmise from the little details we have that even these occasionally sinned.

James

Why do you feel I am not in agreement with the teaching of the Church. I agree with the catechsim, I have said this many times in this forum. As far as what the councils deem sufficient for us to believe in own our own free will, and not commanded to is my choice - why do you judge me for this as if I am wrong? The scriptures I have quoted of being born again are in agreement with the cathecism in its entirety, which should not be taken out of context as you seem to do. Why do you not believe this? You cannot not read a quote from a novel and understand the story, just as you cannot not read the scriptures and catechism and understand if it is taken out of context. From you last post, it SEEMS that you are not in agreement with the scriptures or the catechism… but rather a puffed up theological point of view limited to your own understanding and false misinterpretation of other theologians. For instance, the prayers you have so much faith in for our and others deliverance from purgatory are not commanded by the church for us to practice. That is your free will choice from your heart to put your faith in, as it is my free will choice from my heart to put faith in the things I seem as important. But as far as the born again issue, my understanding of it comes from reading scripture and the catechism teachings, which is what I put my faith in for understanding. You judge me too harshly… and without understanding…
Also, Jesus calling Peter Satan was before his death and ressurrection, so Peter was not able to obtain the Holy Spirit yet because the sacrifice for sin was not yet fulfilled. Peter was still the “old self” and not the “new creation” yet.

Peace…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Why do you feel I am not in agreement with the teaching of the Church. I agree with the catechsim, I have said this many times in this forum. As far as what the councils deem sufficient for us to believe in own our own free will, and not commanded to is my choice - why do you judge me for this as if I am wrong? The scriptures I have quoted of being born again are in agreement with the cathecism in its entirety, which should not be taken out of context as you seem to do. Why do you not believe this? You cannot not read a quote from a novel and understand the story, just as you cannot not read the scriptures and catechism and understand if it is taken out of context. From you last post, it SEEMS that you are not in agreement with the scriptures or the catechism… but rather a puffed up theological point of view limited to your own understanding and false misinterpretation of other theologians. For instance, the prayers you have so much faith in for our and others deliverance from purgatory are not commanded by the church for us to practice. That is your free will choice from your heart to put your faith in, as it is my free will choice from my heart to put faith in the things I seem as important. But as far as the born again issue, my understanding of it comes from reading scripture and the catechism teachings, which is what I put my faith in for understanding. You judge me too harshly… and without understanding…
Also, Jesus calling Peter Satan was before his death and ressurrection, so Peter was not able to obtain the Holy Spirit yet because the sacrifice for sin was not yet fulfilled. Peter was still the “old self” and not the “new creation” yet.

Peace…

This is my final comment to you since you are being ridiculous and spinning things ever which way (in a very hypocritical way yourself I might add). You said or implied that no person can commit a mortal sin while being in a state of being “born of the spirit”. That is an outright contradiction and plays right into the devil’s lie that we can not be forgiven by Christ for serious sin. We are all baptised into Christ at baptism and the spiritual gifts are manifest and developed over one’s life. While we have free will as a consequence and blessing of our human nature we have the capacity to sin - irrespective of being born of the spirit. Human nature is part flesh, part intellect and part spirit. To deny the concupiscence of humanity’s sinful nature is to deny church teaching as well as the nature of our humanity. God uses imperfect humans for a reason that brings him enormous glory. This apparent sinfulness of man and our apparent unworthiness of being received into heaven is what made Satan’s prideful notion that God’s grace and mercy were not alone sufficient to elevate humanity to the same level as angels and even higher.

Of course we should NEVER put God’s mercy to the test and abuse his nature to forgive by consciously sinning. But his grace is so profound that if we do even that terrible thing (a mortal sin) his love, mercy and compassion compels him to ALWAYS take us back a genuinely repentant soul to Himself to manifest his Glory and Divinity. But in all cases as we sin more we become less and less inclined to have the force of will to truly repent and stay in God for the balance of our lives. It takes a committed partnership working with God’s grace to attain salvation.

Anything that suggests that a person born of the spirit (through baptism) can not sin or commit mortal sin is not doctrine of the Catholic Church. And you are being disingenuous and untruthful for contradicting yourself in saying you believe Catholic teaching as you weave scripture like a knot of spaghetti out of context over and over again here.

James